E10 RFG vs. Straight Gas test--final results

Discussion in 'The Daily Grind' started by lamebums, May 24, 2008.

  1. lamebums

    lamebums Member

    Last edited: Jan 25, 2009
  2. wdb

    wdb semi-hyper

    Time to sell my corn futures... ;)
  3. Jaral

    Jaral Well-Known Member

    Craaap. Look at the implications of this. 10% ethanol causes 15% decrease in economy, it it would not be worthwhile to add it to gas even if it was FREE and had an INFINATE supply. That means it hurts economy so badly that it increases gasoline consumption overall when added to gasoline.

    This definately calls into question the usage of E10.
  4. warthog1984

    warthog1984 Well-Known Member

    E10 is needed for one very simple reason.


    The primary reason for E10 is to lower carbon dioxide emissions by providing sufficient oxygen for full combustion. No E10= better mpg but higher CO2 emissions even with the % difference in FE.

    Are there other chemicals that can be used as oxygenate? Sure. lamebums' "straight gas" is likely laced with MTBE, which was the subject of a massive lawsuit recently because its horribly carcinegenic and poisons groundwater supplies.

    E10 isn't great, but its better than the alternatives.
  5. lyekka

    lyekka Well-Known Member

    Have you tried E10 from other stations with the same result? I have heard of E10 with more than 10% ethanol and/or water in it. I have also heard of stations where the actual amount of fuel is less than what the pump indicates. I would not rule out tampering by a station to make a bit of extra profit.

    I am going to try straight gas to see what difference it makes for me.

    I understand that Ohio does not require E10 to be labeled. The people that answer the telephone at the stations do not seem to know for sure if they have E10 or not and refer me to other numbers to call.

    I am now looking into means to test the gas from stations I visit to make sure of what I am purchasing:



    I am also thinking about filling an accurate container to verify the pump as well.
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  6. lamebums

    lamebums Member

    Are you sure about that? A lot of stations in Ohio do have the sticker on the pump (and I avoid those like the devil). It took me two or three days of searching but I eventually did find one that served straight gas (actually on the word of an attendant at a Shell barely 300 yards away, who drove an older car and complained that ethanol messed up her car). Sure enough, no sticker. My mileage has gone up accordingly.

    Also if you have a good nose, straight gas smells different than E10. Can't describe it but I'd recognize it instantly.

    If you'd like, remind me to pick up some E10 on the way back from Philly in a couple days. I'll put it in my gas can.

    I don't think it has MTBE in it. I don't think anybody does anymore.

    As to helping the environment, I think E10 is a horrible solution! :angry: Not only does it increase overall gasoline consumption, there's the huge amount of energy that went into creating the ethanol (I heard 1.3 gallons of gas for 1 gallon of ethanol, plus 1700 gallons of water!).

    I understand reformulated gas to help clean the air, but never ethanol.
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  7. vtec-e

    vtec-e Celtic MPG Warrior

    kudos for doing the experiment lamebums. Manmade CO2 is not really the problem is it?! The earth has warmed and cooled many times before we came along. It's funny how paying someone loads of money is going to fix this! It's not going to. We ARE being scammed but what can we (realistically) do about this?

  8. jcp123

    jcp123 Caliente!

    We noticed this on my Dad's motorcycle. It took about a 20% FE hit with that corn sh!t in it, from ~44 to ~36mpg.
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  9. lyekka

    lyekka Well-Known Member

    It is in the Ohio revised code courtesy of Bob Taft as of 2002:
    http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ACE120_Status_07_web-1.pdf (state by state labeling laws included)

    1345.021 Ethanol blended or mixed into gasoline.
    (A) As used in this section, “retail dealer” means a person who owns, operates, controls, or supervises an establishment at which gasoline is sold or offered for sale to the public.

    (B) When ethanol is blended or mixed into gasoline that is sold or offered for sale to the public, it is not an unfair or deceptive act or practice in connection with a consumer transaction for a retail dealer to fail to disclose either of the following:

    (1) The fact that the gasoline contains ethanol;

    (2) The percentage of ethanol that is contained in the gasoline.

    (C) If a retail dealer elects to disclose any of the information specified in division (B) of this section, the dealer may make that disclosure in any form, using any type of sign or label and any size or style of letters, at the retail dealer’s discretion.

    (D) A retail dealer shall not be required to disclose the fact that gasoline contains ethanol and shall not be required to disclose the percentage of ethanol in the gasoline by any law, rule, resolution, or ordinance of any agency or department of the state or any political subdivision of the state.

    Effective Date: 03-21-2002

    I have seen the same ratio for energy input. Some ratios are even negative. I cannot understand why the US is so bent on using corn with a 1.3 ratio. At least soy biodiesel has a 2.5 ratio. My Dad is interested in selling corn to the new ethanol plant in the area for a bit of a price premium. My objection is the extra fuel used to transport it 3 time farther. My estimates show it to be a loss for us.
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  10. lamebums

    lamebums Member

    I know a guy that has an '89 Cressida. Before doing anything he averaged about 20-21 MPG. With driving slower he picked it up to 23 but couldn't get it any higher. It immediately jumped to 27, and he's headed for another record tank.

    So that's actually almost a 20% increase.

    Republican. Of course. Lapdog of the ethanol lobby, I presume, just like Bush and the others.

    I could make a drinking game out of speeches from GM's executives or George Bush talking about energy policy.

    Every time "ethanol" or "flex fuel" is mentioned, take a drink.

    If a hybrid SUV is mentioned, take two drinks.

    If the Tahoe Hybrid is mentioned, finish off the beer. :)
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  11. lyekka

    lyekka Well-Known Member

    Thats a great game, I don't think I would last long:D
  12. Kevin108

    Kevin108 Well-Known Member

    I did some research and number-crunching on this a while back. (The link, if you're bored..)

  13. chief302

    chief302 Well-Known Member

  14. Jaral

    Jaral Well-Known Member

    Sigh. Oregon has mandated 10% ethanol in all gasoline, so I cant even buy straight gas if I wanted to.
  15. lamebums

    lamebums Member

    I posted an article about this in the news forum a while back. A lady in a Prius lost well over 20% of her mileage with E10 as Oregon went to it.

    If you're close to the border to another state (<30 miles), you might want to look into crossing state lines like I do in order to get regular gas.
  16. jakesteel1424

    jakesteel1424 New Member

    I am an avid hiker and outdoorsman so I read several magazines related to the great outdoors and have been trying hard the last year to change my habits and be as green as possible. In a recent article in Outside Magazine they talked about the terrible environmental impact of ethanol. As soon as I can find a link, I will post
  17. slichopshop

    slichopshop SLiChopShop

    This 10% Gas is terrible for preformance on my old honda civic, not only does my car spit and sputter with no power to pull itself up a hill but if i run more than one tank full you should see the water spew out of my muffler.

    I had to replace spark plugs after two tank fulls and they look as if i have a cracked head gasket.

    So now i am stuck either buying high octane or replacing spark plugs every two week maintenance interval
  18. swoon

    swoon Well-Known Member

    The use of oxygenated fuels is supposed to reduce smog and ozone emissions so it is a difficult thing to quantify the benefit for consumers buying fuel while the mileage hit is easily quantified. Personally, I would rather we did pay a bit more for fuel and get a little worse mileage if it means we are breathing healthier air (and living better, longer and paying less in medical costs which have run up way more than gasoline prices).
  19. worthywads

    worthywads Don't Feel Like Satan, I am to AAA

    Again, not true, MTBE smells bad and makes water smell and taste bad, but it's not horribly carcinogenic or poison.

    The EPA currently considers MTBE to be potentially carcinogenic at high levels if inhaled.

    From wikipedia.

    "The IARC, a cancer research agency of the World Health Organization, maintains MTBE is not classifiable as a human carcinogen. MTBE can be tasted in water at concentrations of 5 – 15 µg/l[9].

    MTBE is not classified as a human carcinogen at low exposure levels by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).[10] However, exposure to large doses of MTBE carries significant non-cancer-related health risks. The effects of the prolonged presence of this alcohol derivative are not fully understood.

    As of 2007, researchers have limited data about the health effects of ingestion of MTBE. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has concluded that available data are not adequate to quantify health risks of MTBE at low exposure levels in drinking water, but that the data support the conclusion that MTBE is a potential human carcinogen at high doses.[11]"

    Forcing animals to inhale extreme levels of MTBE is nothing like drinking contaminated water at parts per billion levels.

    If MTBE wasn't so smelly we'd still be safely using it with no ill health effects, but since it stinks we won't tolerate it.
  20. lyekka

    lyekka Well-Known Member

    I wonder how many facilites have done the proper conversion of storage tanks given the affinity of E10 for water:

    http://lindsayoilcompany.com/Documents/Ethanol Conversion Primer.pdf

    Not to mention monitoring for contamination and phase separation. Are stations actually following all of the procedures to maintain quality?

    If E10 is unavoidable, perhaps the newest stations would be best?

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