Toyota’s Electrified Past, Present and Future

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Oct 13, 2019.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    The first Toyota/Lexus BEV as presented to us a few months ago is about to be revealed...

    Lexus BEV Debuts in China

    Lexus introduces its first battery electric vehicle at the Guangzhou International Automobile Show on November 22.

    Future Lexus BEV

    [​IMG]
    Teaser Image.​

    Specifically crafted to suit the needs of audiences in China and Europe, this further advances the brand's desire to offer a portfolio of electrified powertrain choices for diverse audiences worldwide.

    #LexusElectrified #ExperienceAmazing

    The Press day reveal will occur on November 22, 2019

    Wayne
     
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  2. SI_Prius

    SI_Prius Well-Known Member

    I had a Prius with 37% battery capacity (estimate from 80% down to 37% SOC), It was driving just fine with no error codes, but this was a good enough reason that I traded it in for a new Prius.
     
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  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi SI_Prius:

    A friend of mine has a Gen 3 with over 375k miles on it. He started having pack issues around 200k miles. What was found was one module was in the high 30 percent cap range and the highest was still in the lower 80 percent cap range. He is replacing modules as they emit a Cell and has another replacement after ~ every 40k miles.

    Wayne
     
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  4. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    This is an apples to oranges comparison. Not relevant.

    /my statement was dealing with lithium ion BEV(s), guess I didn't make that clear
     
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  5. SI_Prius

    SI_Prius Well-Known Member

    OK, so Leafs with degradated battery die at 70% SOH?

    As far as I know they Don't, it's just a pain in the ass driving EV with that small range.
     
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  6. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    OK, .. so you are referencing the original Leaf batteries that were LMO (lithium manganese oxide)?

    That's a different chemistry with different properties than what 'Tesla BEV uses/ Toyota BEV will use' and what Nissan BEV has now switched to. LMO (now falling out of favor) contrasted with Lithium Cobalt has a lower cycle life, less energy dense, but is safer -- less susceptible to thermal runaway.
     
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  7. SI_Prius

    SI_Prius Well-Known Member

    Sorry, but I seriously doubt that you have the insight into latest Technology that is used in battery chemistry, there are many details that can make battery very different even though it's characterised as LMO, NCM, LFP, NCA or LCO.

    Tesla uses NCM 8:1:1, even though every one else (including Toyota) seems to use NCA. Are you saying that all NCM and NCA are completely the same and battery packs will die at 70% capacity?

    I seriously doubt that.
     
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  8. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Go over to teslamotorsclub -- community -- model s battery and charging

    Search through that and tell me how many examples you can find of a battery going down below 70% rated miles but otherwise everything functioning/driving normally.
    hint -- very few or possibly none

    And while you're at it. Tell me how many examples you can find of a battery failing (prior to dropping to 70% capacity) and having to be replaced.
    hint -- a crapload

    that's what I'm saying
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Carcus:

    Tesla was building their vehicles with off-the-shelf cells in the beginning. I am not saying their battery engineers are on top of their game or not but the entire corporation has been found to be shortsighted in any number of design decisions. Cell chemistry was outside their decision making for a very long time so the old stuff vs the new stuff could have different longevity outcomes.

    Wayne
     
  10. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    HI Wayne,

    I think the idea was that Tesla was (supposedly) able to make a very good lemonade out of the small cell lemons. (i.e. better cooling, better failed cell isolation/ pack integrity) ... at least that was the idea. I also think Tesla has been experimenting with different mixes (i.e. more/less cobalt, silicone, etc...)

    So I dunno if it's really a case of being shortsighted, budget limited, .. or just the ol' "early pioneer ends up catching most of the arrows" syndrome.
     
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  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    User forums are good place to go to find out about potential problems for a car model.
    They are not a good place to find out about the incidence of such issues, as the owners not having problems rarely post to say so. Odds are they haven't even joined the site.

    https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/
    The charts there show the reported the remaining range for over 350 Teslas. As of the date that was published, only one was down to 70%; 0.28% of the population. The original 85kWh pack was cancelled in 2016. Through that year, a little over 91k Model S's were sold in the US. There is probably about 255 that had their range drop down to 70%.
     
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  12. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    I can't see the 255 cars you're talking about. In fact. I can't even find one in the "charts" ... what charts? .... " ....the relevant charts from the data gathering effort (full chart on the left and zoomed to 80% on the right):" --- those two charts?

    /1/250 x 91,000 = "incidence of such issue" ? Really ??

    Get out of here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    A Dutch site gathered up the reported range/capacity loss of a few hundred Teslas from around the world.
    The Electrek link posted the graphs of that data as of April 14, 2018.
    Of the 350 plus cars they've tracked; one had 75% loss(misread that as 70% for my earlier post), and four others had less but greater than 85%. That's 0.28% seeing 75%, and 1.4% seeing more than 85%. Actually less as I calculated from 350, and there is more in that population of data.

    The 91k Model S sold in the US through 2016 came from InsideEVs scorecard. I choose 2016 as that was the last year the 85kWh was available(actually ended in Feb), and the 60kWh had been ended earlier. From the Dutch site's numbers, we would expect 255 to have seen a loss of 75%, and 1274 to have over 85% loss. It could be more as we don't have a model break down of the data, but it could be less. At least one Model S had a pack replaced due to loss getting to low or defect; it has gone over 600k miles while still on its second pack.

    Some packs have been replaced. A reporter had the misfortune of having the pack in his Bolt replaced twice because of defects. GM and LG Chem studied the packs and improved the manufacturing process with the data. Tesla and Panasonic would have done the same, and the knowledge gained surely went into the new cell design.
     
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  14. SI_Prius

    SI_Prius Well-Known Member

    Carcus, maybe Tesla has a specific problem because of thousand small batteries and not the chemistry alone?

    The title of this topic is Toyota and Toyota won't use thousands of "AA cells", but bigger prismatic batteries. And also they won't use the same chemistry as Tesla, so enough Tesla talk in this topic.
     
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  15. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Well, beings you are asking about Tesla ....


    Toyota taps same batteries as Tesla for China plug-in hybrids
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/E...-batteries-as-Tesla-for-China-plug-in-hybrids
    "NAGOYA, Japan -- Toyota Motor is using Panasonic batteries designed for Tesla electric cars in its own plug-in hybrids for the Chinese market, Nikkei has learned, underscoring the difficulty of finding a stable supply even as demand rises.

    The batteries have been installed in the new Corolla and Levin sedans that the Japanese automaker rolled out in China this year. Toyota is believed to have ordered around 50,000 of the batteries, which are the same cylindrical type used by Tesla.
    The arrangement not only helps Toyota deal with the challenge of securing high-quality batteries, but also should boost Panasonic's profit margins. Automotive battery production lines at Panasonic's Suminoe plant in Osaka are believed to be operating at full capacity thanks to the additional order.

    Panasonic had supplied electric-vehicle batteries exclusively to Tesla, though the relationship between the two has grown strained. Nikkei reported in April that they halted plans for additional capacity at their sprawling joint-venture battery Gigafactory in the U.S.

    Meanwhile, Panasonic has supplied prismatic, or rectangular, hybrid-vehicle batteries to Toyota, and the two companies announced a joint venture in January to produce batteries for electrics.

    As demand for electrified vehicles continues to grow in China, the world's biggest automobile market, Toyota formed partnerships in June with Chinese supplier CATL, a leading global auto battery maker, and peer BYD.
     
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  16. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    ... now is any of this set in stone? Obviously not.

    Pouch cells are gaining momentum (GM, Ford, Audi) ... and what, exactly, is Toyota planning on using? If you've got a reference ... post it here. So we can talk about Toyota.
     
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  17. SI_Prius

    SI_Prius Well-Known Member

    They are doing that to fill supply gap, as the article states.

    Toyota and Panasonic established a joint venture with 51% Toyota stake on all current Panasonic prismatic cells capacity. Surely just to misled people and go with the Tesla cells instead.:rolleyes:
     
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  18. SI_Prius

    SI_Prius Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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