Honda April 2017 Sales Down 7.0% with 138,386 Vehicles sold + 17 Civic Hatch Review

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, May 10, 2017.

  1. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    I also had to order and wait. And am still waiting for probably a few more months.
     
  2. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    How does built to order work? Actually build to order, or put you on priority when the next one that matches your order happens to show up in inventory? I just don't understand why they don't or can't give you a delivery date.
     
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  3. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    Honda doesn't know how many or how long the tea breaks in Swindon will be.
     
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  4. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    My experience was by placing a 'buyers order', I was put in some kind of priority. (i.e. the dealerships just take what they can get/find). I actually didn't get my interior color choice (wanted black, got tan). AFAIK there is no way to put in a "custom order" to the Honda factory. The more flexibility you have have (such as in exterior/interior colors) ,.. the faster the dealership can find you a car.
     
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  5. WriConsult

    WriConsult Super Moderator

    Huh. It's almost as if you didn't actually read my post. My two main points were:
    - Not expensive for a hatch in its class. I listed every single competitor, and most are more expensive. Even the darling of the class, the Mazda3, costs more. The only C-hatches significantly cheaper than the Civic are the Elantra GT and the Focus.
    - Hatchbacks and sedans are two completely different types of car. Once again you are comparing apples and giraffes.
     
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  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Dan:

    When I am looking at $14k sedans and $20k plus hatches with similar equipment, I will take the sedan and carry my bike like loads on a hitch mounted carrier.

    Wayne
     
  7. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    I am in the same boat with Carcus and Seftonm. I put in an order for a LX Hatch 6MT today and the dealer says 2 or 3 months wait if (if!) Honda accepts the order. And I won't know if that happens for a couple weeks. I'm not too clear at all about the order process. I did get to drive a LX Hatch 6MT, though, today. The dealer has a black one. I'm not picky about color but black is a deal killer. I scoured dealer inventory of 17 dealers in 4 states up to 300 miles away and this black LX 6MT is the only one available. I would say Honda America has vastly underestimated the demand for the 6MT. First, by relegating the 6MT to the stripper trim exclusively; and secondly, by not importing nearly enough of them. Thus the severe shortage.

    Anyway, the test drive went well. The clutch action is broad and smooth. There's enough flywheel weight to get things going smoothly (and this was a problem with my 92 Civic Si.) Shifting was OK. Just OK. It wasn't Mazda quality because there's a bit of notchiness and rev hang. The car will go. That's more than I can say for the Niro and Ioniq. However, I did like the superior comfort and utility of the Niro--just not nearly enough to overcome the Niro's hefty price premium.
     
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  8. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    Thereby leaving the bike exposed to weather, theft, and accident, while adding unnecessary weight and drag to the sedan.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
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  9. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I have a trunk-mount Yakima two-bike carrier that I bought with the first mountain bike in 2006. Anyone want it ? I can fit either bike ( maybe both ) inside the Prius today. No added aero drag.
     
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  10. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi RedylC94:

    I can buy a lot of bikes for $7k. Or pull both wheels off and place them in the trunk. Hatches are nice. They are not 50 percent higher price nice.

    Wayne
     
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  11. WriConsult

    WriConsult Super Moderator

    No you won't. There's no way you would buy a $14k sedan.

    Besides, I'm not aware of all those nicely equipped $14k C-class sedans you're talking about. Even if there were, why can't you just accept that sedans are a hard no-go for a lot of people? This is just an example of looking at things from a single perspective and refusing to see another person's point of view. Aren't you a car-advice professional here? Don't be trying to sell me cantaloupe when I'm trying to buy yogurt. My statement still stands that the Civic is now the king of the C-hatch segment. Trying to say that C-hatches are "too expensive" as a class is changing the subject.

    Look, if it's just about the cheapest possible car, how can you possibly keep advising people to buy hybrids anyway? From an individual economic perspective, they are a WASTE OF MONEY. You will never make up the price difference between ANY hybrid and your $14k sedan on fuel savings. Not even at $5 gas. People always say the "hybrid premium" is only $3k, but that's only compared to "comparably equipped" cars loaded with options. It sure doesn't apply here, because there ain't no $17k hybrid.

    Also, if it's just about the cheapest possible car, why on earth are you reviewing seventy-eight thousand dollar pickups?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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  12. WriConsult

    WriConsult Super Moderator

    Accch, I shouldn't even bother explaining why trunks are essential for some people other than yourself, and not just "nice", because you clearly don't want to see it from the angle you've chosen. I don't know why you dig in like this sometimes ... you're the same guy who told me years ago I shouldn't care about cargo space because your parents allegedly took you and your sibling camping in a VW Beetle once (with what gear I can't imagine), so that should be big enough for anybody ...

    But against my better judgment here I go. First, about bikes.
    - I used hitch racks for many years, and have paid to put trailer hitches on at least eight different cars. Three of those hitches were custom made, because bolt-on hitches either weren't available or severely impaired ground clearance. Having to deal with U-haul people or have a custom hitch designed, to the tune of $200+, or put it in myself (sometimes a simple bolt-on job, more often NOT), every few years when I buy a new car, is a total pain. I finally gave up when we bought the Mazda, and haven't installed a hitch. I am so DONE.
    - I use a trunk mounted rack when I need the space in the car, but they're a pain too. They're a fuss to install, straps can loosen, paint can get damaged on dusty and/or bumpy roads, you have to remove the bikes just to open the trunk. They're not always the best option.
    - Trunk mounted racks require frequent removal and reinstallation, not only to protect the car's paint, but because my wife would kill me if I left it on there all the time.
    - Well, with SOME sedans you can remove both wheels as you describe - bearing in mind this is several times the hassle of just removing the front wheel - and cram a bike frame in the trunk. But my experience is that takes a pretty big trunk. Many B and C class sedans won't take a bike frame unless you fold down the rear seats.
    - Since the comparison you posit is with $14k sedans, I should remind you that most lower-trim B and C class sedans don't even have folding rear seats.
    - Even when a sedan has folding rear seats, I've found that the passthrough is so narrow I need to fold both seats down to get a bike frame in. Which means I can't transport a child and a bike at the same time, something I can easily do in almost any hatchback. You might think being able to transport a child and a bike simultaneously is a ridiculous luxury, but I'm raising kids and being a bike enthusiast at the same time, something you are not. Besides, sometimes the bike is my kid's and he doesn't want you telling me to buy a car where we can't bring it.

    Second, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT BIKES!
    - As you well know, I have two children and a large dog. Where's would Richie ride in a sedan? Huh? You BETTER not be advocating that I put him in the trunk!
    - Some of us actually use our hatch-equipped vehicles to haul large things. I regularly transport large objects that wouldn't fit in a sedan. I know a lot of people who own pickups just so they can bring the occasional lumber home from Home Depot. How much money does that waste? Two nights ago I brought home a couch from IKEA. A few weeks ago, a shelving unit. Again, sedan=fail here.
    - How about skis? Definitely tricky at best in most sedans. Roof racks have their own very long list of issues, Barrecrafters stopped making trunk-mounted ski racks at least 20 years ago, and your $14k sedans aren't going to have passthrus. Hatchback FTW.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Dan:

    Give me $14k tomorrow and I will drop off a new 17 Elantra Eco at your home before the end of the week.

    When I have pups in the car, I do not place her in the hatch. It is just to hot.

    Wayne
     
  14. WriConsult

    WriConsult Super Moderator

    That's a nice car. For a sedan, anyway.

    Funny thing, though: the Hyundai website says the Elantra's starting MSRP+destination is 18k. Guess you've found some amazing incentives somewhere.

    This isn't about YOUR lifestyle. Right now this discussion is about understanding that not everyone is just like you.
    1. Besides, the hatch area is not too hot to put a dog in the vast majority of the time. Maybe on a long drive away from the sun on a hot day, but there is no day of the year that the hatch doesn't work for a 10 minute ride to the dog park.
    2. I ALREADY MENTIONED I HAVE TWO KIDS. Can't put the dog in the backseat with them. See, this is what I'm talking about. You're only willing to look at this through your own lens, not seeing how other people's lifestyles might work, even when they're trying to hit you over the head with it. It's called perspective.

    As a professional car reviewer, you get to advise people on what car to buy, right? That can include a modest amount of advice on what kind of car to buy - maybe you can buy a smaller car and rent a larger vehicle for that one trip a year, or maybe instead of buying a pickup so you can haul dirt once a year you could just rent a truck from U-Haul or Zipcar, or get a decent winter tires and you don't need to limit yourself to an AWD vehicle - but ultimately that is lifestyle advice and not car advice. You can only go so far with it. Your lifestyle advice can work in a general sense, but if an individual replies with reasons why your recommendations might not work for them, you don't get to to keep pushing it. Try to open your mind and see their perspective, even if it is not what you would do.

    Let me be clear: I'm not telling you to buy a hatchback because I think your lifestyle demands it. But you are trying to others not to buy hatchbacks because you think no one else's lifestyle demands it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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  15. PaleMelanesian

    PaleMelanesian Beat the System Staff Member

    Wayne, try READING what he's saying instead of just repeating your own talking points.:rolleyes:

    I'm with Wri on this. I will not buy another sedan. What benefit is there to a sedan over a hatch? Price? I'll buy a 3-year used one.

    How are you going to carry a dryer in your sedan? How about a water heater? Lazy-boy? I've done all those this year. A sedan is too compromised for me to consider going back to one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  16. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Dan and Andrew:

    I understand why you are both going to buy/own hatches as well as many others here that do. We have a Prius in our fleet as well. I am keenly aware that it costs upwards of 50 percent more out of pocket over a similarity equipped sedan. My write-ups are also based on financial. Since I should focus on Honda's, One of the main detractors against the Accord Hybrid vs. its competitors is its upfront cost despite being the most efficient mid-size on the road today. Hopefully we will hear about a price drop on the 14th of next month. Remember the discussions on 7+ year loans? Our country is F'ed because everyone is buying on payment and want vs need.

    I would not recommend placing a pup in the hatch of a car like the Civic. The heat load through the glass is just to large. The Fit is fine because it is covered but very tight behind the second row. Civic, Cruze, or Focus would not be my recommendation for any pup.

    Prescient timing for the discussion. My oldest had this delivered to us yesterday for his Corolla. Their Yaris hatch is to small according to him. Not perfect but it is his own way of coping with life.

    [​IMG]

    I am also blessed that I can move stuff with the occasional pickup that arrives which the average owner is not able so I am not exactly the real world in terms of need here either. I get that. And here is why you review large Pickups with Turbo Diesels in particular.

    [​IMG]

    Would you like a perspective owners - not any of us - to buy the RAM w/ the Cummins or the F-250 w/ the Power Stroke, Silverado 2500 HD w/ the Duramax, or Titan XD with the Cummins given our measured drives in them over the past two years? One will save close to 15 percent on total fuel cost and consumption over the next best. There are no EPA ratings on the Monroney's of these monsters.

    Wayne
     
  17. PaleMelanesian

    PaleMelanesian Beat the System Staff Member

    Looks like the market agrees with Dan and me. The first non-truck on that list is Rav4, with a hatchback body style.

    Again, if you buy lightly used, there is no price penalty.
     
  18. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    I also prefer hatchbacks. Before putting a deposit on the Civic, I went to look at 4-5 hatches and another 2-3 CUVs. Number of sedans considered = 0.

    The 250 / 2500 turbo diesel trucks are an easy $5k - $10k more than the half tons, ride rougher, are more expensive to maintain, and don't have significantly better features, other than more capacity. A half-ton is a better choice for most people who don't need the capabilities of a 3/4 ton.
     
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  19. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Andrew:

    Yes it does. Is it best for the country or for any of those owners financial wherewithal? It took me over a year to convince Marian to drop the Mazda CX-5 in favor of the Sonata Hybrid. Best "convincing" I have ever done.

    Mike, once the EcoDiesel was pulled, that leaves maybe the Ridgeline - I have not requested that truck, Tacoma 4X2 - I have that one schedule for July, the F-150 with the new normally aspirated 3.5L, and the compact TD equipped Colorado/Canyon. The upcoming Ford 3.0L TD is my real hope to see truck LD buyers consume less. We have talked about the 3/4-Ton vs. 1/2 ton ride, upfront cost and resale differences.

    Wayne
     
  20. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    Margins are better on trucks, and I imagine it must also be better on CUV/SUV/hatchbacks given the pricing. That's the car companies pricing according to what they perceive to be people's preferences. Can't fault them for that. So yes, sedans may be less expensive. :)

    The entry level trims are potentially loss leaders, with the up-sell to more desirable content increasing the margins (again!). That's the free market for you... I like the trend toward "necessary" safety gear being standard equipment across the board. Now we just have to convince the manufacturers that the blind spot and rear cross traffic alert systems are really necessary, too.
     
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