Biogas is renewable energy's Cinderella

Discussion in 'Emissions' started by Carcus, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member


    I believe there are a few methanol distributors already in place where you live now.... correct?
  2. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    I have no idea, I used to buy it in a drum from a local race shop, but I dont think they use it in racing any more.. any of your vehicles is e85 compatible?
  3. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    So you're the self proclaimed champion of methanol on this website,... but don't even know if it's available where you live?

    Am I getting this right?
  4. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    You got it right.. when are you going to rig up your truck for methane?.. I'm sure you have it planned already and know where all the sources are.. heck you can make the stuff in your backyard.

    You can probably make methanol at home by retorting wood in a still, and you would end up with charcoal for other uses.

    Can I get a medal for being the methanol champion?
  5. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Here's my deal Herm.

    I'm a "peak-oiler" .... or to be more specific, a "peak-cheap-oiler" --- I think oil has got the potential of getting very expensive very quickly ... as in $160/bbl+ (and stay there) within this decade.

    IF this were to happen, it's going to get ugly. IF this were to happen, we are going to need some real solutions, real quick.

    Internet masturbation and "Mr. Fusion dreaming" won't cut it
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  6. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    Precisely, thats where methanol comes in.. none of this methane or hydrogen gas stuff.. liquid fuels to feed our millions of heritage internal combustion engines with their heritage fuel tanks and fuel pumps. Methanol is made in commercial quantities today, and is even used as a motor fuel in China.

    We will settle on substitutes as oil gets more expensive, and there are lots of substitutes available from GMO biofuels to CTL until we are finally forced into electrics. Its a bright and interesting future Carcus, dont dispair.
  7. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Yah, just keep typing it over and over .... maybe it will come true.
  8. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Hmmmm............... any idea what percentage of cars and trucks are actually using methanol in China ? Or is it just agricultural equipment ?
  9. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I know I just love our Mr. Fusion. We make a pot every day for the last four years and it still works just fine.

    And are you implying that Internet masturbation is a bad thing ? Wow, I had no idea.
    I'l be back later, gotta go shave my palms.
  10. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    found this:

    "Methanol now represents over 7 percent of China’s transportation fuel pool, with as much as 7 million metric tons or 2.3 billion gallons of methanol expected to be sold at the fuel pump in 2010. Most methanol production in China is based on coal gasification. In a country where the retail price of gasoline is controlled by the central government, methanol’s lower wholesale price compared with gasoline is a real incentive for fuel blending. Chinese consumers in more than 14 provinces pump M-15 (a blend of 15 percent methanol and 85 percent gasoline) in their cars. While taxi, bus and truck fleets run on M-85 and even neat methanol (M-100). The Chinese recognize a bargain when the see one."
  11. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

  12. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

  13. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    NWU is making progress.. exciting news for simulations in material science.

    a couple of things to keep in perspective with all gas absorbers:

    1. weight
    2. expense

    Northwestern team synthesizes MOFs with highest surface areas yet and calculates new theoretical upper limit 39% beyond current; implications for gas storage
  14. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Yep. MOF tanks do sound expensive and who knows if the tech will even pan out. But ....

    The nice thing about a CNG "dual fuel". If you can wedge a conventional 7 gallon CNG tank into a reasonably fuel efficient car (say a 35 mpg civic) -- then that gives you 245 miles of local weekly driving if you can just hit a CNG fillup once per week.

    - if you average 15,000 miles per year, then it's reasonable to assume that 12,740 would be on cng (52 weeks x 245 miles/week) and 2,260 (long trips) would be on gasoline. This scenario, of course, requires one CNG station reasonably close to your normal routine driving (I'm gonna say 10 miles out of the way to fill up on CNG will be about all most would tolerate).

    Sort of like a plug in hybrid, your "alternate fuel" will be used in the majority of your driving. So even "old tech" tanks will (mostly) do the trick. AND as CNG stations get more prominent, stopping every 245 miles isn't too bad on a road trip.

    I live in a good spot for CNG -- I've been checking out cng stations where my normal travels are. ...if I do a conversion, I think I'll be able to work my way into CNG only fairly quickly but will end up running some gasoline just to keep the tank from going stale.

    / and, if someone is really hung up on losing the trunk space, there are options to make up for that:
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012
  15. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    You are thinking of converting your pickup truck?
  16. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    I thinking of trying it on my car first. See how that works and go from there.
  17. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Carcus:

    Regarding CNG, with Civics priced at a $7K premium (more considering what a base Civic can be picked up for nowadays), CNG is not going to cut it. No way does a carbon fiber tank cost $6 + K to make but Honda's got a monopoly.

    Regarding Methanol, it certainly has potential as it does not have the energy deficit that Ethanol does. I am not to familiar with it although we have followed it with a number of stories over the past 6 + years.

  18. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Hi Wayne,

    Honda's got the GX priced unreasonably. I don't know why. A $3,000 premium ought to be plenty.

    The pickup conversions are going to pay back sooner. They're running higher right now, but I think with some scale a good quality conversion on a pickup should be in the $5,000 to $6,000 range. CNG is running $1.35 in Oklahoma now (almost 1/3 the price of gas) so that would be a 3 or 4 year payback which seems reasonable to me.
  19. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    I think the problem with Cng conversions right now is that it's so early in the game (for the U.S. market anyway). A lot of the difficulties are in building up a knowledge database and getting all the software right for each individual powertrain.

    Here's a thread off of Cng chat which I think illustrates:

    Tartarini Software Experts?

    /from memory, I think the Tartarini kit plus 13 gallon-ish steel tank would run about $3,000 in parts only. I'm guessing about 8 to 12 man hours for skilled and experienced to do the install.

    // Here's a state side vendor's price list for the Tartarini kits. I see they've got a "calibration kit" as well.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
  20. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    But if CNG conversions start to become seriously popular, won't the road-tax people catch up with CNG? Then what happens to that 3-year payback period?

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