Legality of FAS’ing and NICE-On’s…

Discussion in 'Legislation' started by xcel, Jun 29, 2008.

  1. Shrek

    Shrek Kaizen Driver

    I don't enjoy offending people, but when I replied to the post about not wanting to take off the shoes I read it as a rude response to a well-meant advice and replied a bit sharp because of that (and maybe because of being a norwegian - known for our rude behaviour and hopeless social skills )

    When I afterwards re-read his post, I saw that it might not have been meant that way, but for sure he did not go out of his way to be polite either, so the following explosion was not very necessary from his side.

    If you track his posts, you will see that he came here for Scangauge info (to track transmission temperatures), and not for hypermiling advice for his 96 Suburban and 97 Explorer.

    Otherwise I read your article with great interest. I have always been above average aware of safety and I would f.ex never consider FAS'ing an auto.

    As for FAS'ing a manual I rarely do it but _do_ think with proper training one could do that safely (proper gear selected, foot on cluth ready to drop it, regularly practicing the emergency maneuver).

    Think of it, fresh drivers have to practice emergency braking too, and divers have to practice (at least mentally) the lead-belt-release/emergency-west trigger, skydivers practice chute-release etc. Aviation guys like you know this very well of course.

    I am seriously working on installing an electric vacuum pump to my brake system (something that is readily available in diesel, electric and hybrid cars), to be able to safely FAS towards red lights and in congested traffic.

    For high speed driving the idle consumption is so low that I do not consider FAS necessary anyway, so loss of airbags/PS is not a worry.
  2. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

    I think I hear an echo. ;)
  3. Tracker,
    While I don't intend to defend your argument that being cavalier about safety is a bad thing (a point you never proved relative to our efforts), your parallels to aviation safety standards (I am a private pilot) appear to me to miss the main ingredients and effects of this board.
    This is not an industry driven or a particularly industry sympathetic site. And if it becomes so, it will lose me and, I suspect, most of its subscribers. We're not down the middle SUV drivers, responsive shoppers to GM's latest BS or illiterates. We grew up in the Internet Age.
    We're about pushing the envelope, being a nudge, questioning, testing, and sharing our results with each other. It's not about trying to lead the nation to improve gas mileage by 1-2%, sympathizing with why it is soooo hard for carmakers to be profitable and fuel efficient under their current regulatory burdens, or to keep little ladies in big SUVs from endangering more of us than they already do.
    We are skeptical, not ashamed to be anti-authoritarian denialists (strikes one and two) and loose canon corporate athiests (strike three). And when it comes to CT cops, we're apparently downright outlaws. So be it. We're looking for our Hole in the Wall.
    We're not advocating pulsing and gliding airplanes. (As an aviator, I'm also well aware of how fuel weight and safety trade-offs are made all the time.) We are advocating pulsing and gliding our land craft. It's safe. I saves huge amounts of fuel and emissions. And it's legality stems from another culture. Yours.
    We disagree fundamentally, but I also appreciate effort you put into your essay. It may be persuasive to the status quo. But, at least in my view, it is mostly irrelevant to us here.
  4. lightfoot

    lightfoot Reformed speeder

    What I think is a close analogy in aviation to what goes on here is a group of pilots in Alaska who have perfected short landing/takeoff techniques on rough terrain. It's pretty amazing, but they are very very focused on safety. I can't help thinking that a large safety factor in what they do is the low speeds at which they are flying, another analogy to what we do here. The site is:

    They are pushing the envelope certainly but are at the same time very mindful of the risks. It would be easy to call them nuts if one was not aware of the many precautions that they take. Perhaps short rough terrain landings are a bit less significant/relevant than improving FE.

    I'm also uncomfortable with blanket statements that a method such as FAS is too dangerous. It depends on the vehicle: many Insights, mine included, have been modified so that FAS involves simply pushing a button to stop injection of fuel. The ICE stops, but airbags and computers are never down, steering assist is electric, sensor in the brake booster refires the ICE if the vac gets too low, and engine restarts when you put the shifter into gear. So where's the problem?

    it would be my dream that newer cars will have systems like this built in.

    OTOH I have to key-off the Subaru so I did not FAS it for most of the past two years. More recently, I have begun FAS-ing it, but only in situations where I feel it is safe and will net some mpg improvement. So it also depends on the driver and on the situation. Like anything one does in driving, it is not safe in all cars under all situations for all drivers.

    The recommendation here not to use anything one feels uncomfortable with is a good one, as is the constantly repeated recommendation to test new methods out at low speeds in safe places.
  5. azraelswrd

    azraelswrd Well-Known Member

    from California Vehicle Codes:
    Pretty much what everyone else has posted.
  6. Nanci

    Nanci Well-Known Member

    Florida, 2007:

    316.2024 Coasting prohibited.--The driver of any motor vehicle, when traveling upon a downgrade, shall not coast with the gears or transmission of such vehicle in neutral or the clutch disengaged. A violation of this section is a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a moving violation as provided in chapter 318.

    History.--s. 1, ch. 71-135; s. 1, ch. 76-31; s. 154, ch. 99-248.

    Note.--Former s. 316.094.
  7. Dougmeister

    Dougmeister Member

    Can't find anything for PA explicity, but did find this from the PA Driver's Test:

    I posted them in this thread but haven't gotten any feedback on it (yet).

    Also this other thread: 'Hypermiling Legal Constraints
  8. JusBringIt

    JusBringIt Be Inspired

    Very short post. Coasting is prohibited in NY. I am a lot safer now than i was before. Now I FAS, ( I don't nice on coast) I am very comfortable with it and just like everything else, has a learning curve.
  9. fixedintime

    fixedintime Well-Known Member

    I went looking for more on this and I think the signals referred to here are the turn signal. I couldn't find anything that refer to the emergency flashers.
  10. kwj

    kwj I hypermiled this

    Hi Mike, I did wait for the "industry" to come forward with great ideas for increasing MPGs. They did not. I waited for over 35 years Mike, and I never heard from you or the tire manufacturers or the automobile manufacturers.

    It is my fervent belief that if Wayne had not come up with Hypermiling, we would not be having this discussion, and neither you nor I would be here.

    If Hypermiling had not come up with these techniques, there would be a big goose egg at the top of this screen.

    As to safety and risk, I asked you for an actual number of how much risk I am taking, by pumping my tires up to Max Sidewall, and then slowing down and increasing my buffer between cars. No response.

    You can take offense that some here have not agreed with you, and that is fine. That is not disrespect, just that you have failed to make your case such that all can understand. I personally disagree with a lot of your safety/risk engagements. I couldn't fly in an airplane unless the Wright brothers were willing to take a risk that they decided was acceptable.

    Sometimes we need to step out and try something to prove it, when no one else seems to be stepping up to the plate. There will always be those that disagree, some strongly, as in the earth is flat. I think that totally disregarding the experience and skills, and safety training of many on this site, is not being realistic.
  11. run500mph

    run500mph Well-Known Member

    Good stuff guys,

    But I gotta tell ya, I fas 24/7 and have always had full control. I now drive safer, much slower, and my chances of "slamming" into something are now insanely lower than ever in my life. I drove "normal" over the speed limit - illegal - for years.

    Now, I am one less idiot threat on the road now only because of Hypermiling. Cars' trunks grow farther away from me when I drive dwb where before I was much closer to a guys tail in "normal safe" driving. I feel so much more prepared to catch something far, far ahead before it ever gets into my zipcode. Anyone who puts this into practice can easily see how ridiculous it is to even try to say fasing, or nice-on is ever dangerous on FLAT roads. With safe remote proper practice it is the safest form of driving you will ever do.
    The real killer of drivers? Inattention. Hypermilers are the opposite of that.

  12. az drop top

    az drop top Member

    More of the same in AZ
  13. kwj

    kwj I hypermiled this

    Fixed in time: The part that leads me to think they are talking about 4-way flashers is the "or start from a stopped, standing, or parked position; and (2) May not be flashed as a courtesy or "do pass" signal to the driver of any other vehicle approaching from the rear."

    The reason I'm led to think this is speaking about 4-way flashers, is that when trucks move from a stopped, standing, or parked position, they use their 4-way flashers to indicate that they have not yet come up to speed. Yet, those same flashers are not to be used as a courtesy or a "do pass" signal.

    Please tell me how you could possibly use a turn signal to tell someone to pass? If, on a 4 lane highway, you use a left signal, you are indicating an intention to pull into the next lane to the left. If you are in the right lane (and we are), use of the right turn signal indicates either you are taking the next exit, or are pulling onto the shoulder.

    Only the 4-way flashers give the unambigious message to pass, and that is seemingly against Maryland law. They apparently want you to use your flashers to indicate you are not moving.

    I remember a lady friend who drove her T-Bird with its flashers on, and the MSP pulled her over and gave her a ticket. Said it was against the law to have your flashers on while you were simply driving.

    So, believe what you may about the Maryland law. It is not always very objective as I'd like. For instance, what is an "improved" roadway?
  14. Thumper

    Thumper Well-Known Member

    It would appear that Kansas is the same as the others on NICE-Ons.

    8-1580. Coasting prohibited. (a) The driver of any motor vehicle when traveling upon a down grade shall not coast with the gears or transmission of such vehicle in neutral.

    (b) The driver of a truck or bus when traveling upon a down grade shall not coast with the clutch disengaged.

    History: L. 1974, ch. 33, § 8-1580; July 1.
  15. fixedintime

    fixedintime Well-Known Member

    This is really my own speculation, but I think you have to remember that they write these rules for those who think before they act. They think one way when the same action could have multiple meanings - it is just that the guy only thinks of the one reason - and it is not a good one.

    So my guess is that someone is sitting on the side of the road and they want to tell everyone to go on by. So instead of putting on their flashers, the put their turn signal on to tell the other drivers just to go on by them - it does not occur to them that the drivers may think that they are signaling that they are about to pull back into traffic.
  16. Showbizk

    Showbizk Well-Known Member

    Run500mph, or anyone else who's been on this thread, can you elaborate on FAS please? As I read the glossary, it refers to hybrid vehicles, but someone mentioned doing it with a Subie. I have NICE-on'd my WRX down a long hill to my driveway, and all the way into the garage, hitting 45 at the most, and barely coasting to a stop at home--about 3/4 mile total. I quit doing it after my SGII indicates fuel cutoff occurs when coasting in gear down to about 1000 rpm; I theoretically should be saving more fuel that way. I had tried NICE-off and I lost too much--PS, PB, signals, etc.--to be comfortable with it. If that's the FASing you're talking about Run500mph, I would debate that you're in full control.

    This is a fascinating thread, I must say!
  17. Damionk

    Damionk DWL Lover

    A NICE-off is essentially a FAS, from the sound of it you need to turn the key back into the on position. That way your signals and other electronics work. It is true that most cars will lose power steering and brakes, at speed (for my car above about 30 MPH) steering is nearly effortless. The only time I really have to work the wheel is under about 10 MPH. You can still press the brakes 3-4 times before having to really press hard. I recommend trying in a vacant parking lot or something of the sort. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that with a manual transmission FASing will cause no problems to your car.
  18. lightfoot

    lightfoot Reformed speeder

    Yes, there should be no mechanical damage from FAS-ing an MT. Showbizk, you don't say what trans you have, but I have FAS'd my MT Subaru Outback many times no problem.

    As damionk says, you need to turn the key back to the same position it was in when you were driving along with the ICE on and you should have turn signals, etc. My DRL's don't go on unless the ICE is running but the headlights do, so I simply leave the headlights in the on position during the day.

    I get at least two brake applications before the vac assist is gone, and the steering gets heavier but is not a problem for me.

    Like you, I did not feel comfortable FAS-ing my Outback for quite a while. Lately I've started doing it in select conditions where I feel it will be beneficial and safe. The situation is different in the Insight and I FAS that a LOT.

    If you don't feel it is safe then definitely don't FAS.
  19. Showbizk

    Showbizk Well-Known Member

    Thanks lightfoot, and damionk, I wasn't concerned with any mechanical damage to the car (M5) from ICE-off coasting, just the concern (and I have experienced it and don't like it!) of heavier steering, and less braking. As I said, I could ICE-off coast all the way into the garage (and my son thought that was really cool!), but the last two right-angle left turns into my street and driveway were not without significant effort! I'm not comfortable with it and wouldn't do it any more. My biggest point was the SGii indicating MPG 9999 as the cutoff is activated with 5th gear engaged coasting. If it's literally true, I gain nothing by ICE-off coasting, and actually lose a teeny bit NICE-on coasting. If the SGii is deriving something that isn't really happening of course, that's a different ballgame. Any thoughts from SGii users? (My cutoff is set to 14, the idle TPS is 10, FYI).
  20. lightfoot

    lightfoot Reformed speeder

    If you coast in gear, foot off the gas, yes you will get fuel cutoff down to roughly 1000rpm, where the computer feeds in gas at idle level. However you won't coast as far as you would in neutral, ICE-ON or -OFF.

    If you coast ICE-OFF, you use zero gas all the way down to 0mph, and you coast further because there is no engine drag. Which means that you don't have to resume burning gas as soon, or that you can begin the coast at a lower speed and so not burn gas to build momentum to offset the engine drag.

    Obviously there are situations where you have excess speed and will have to stop for a light or stop sign, so you can coast in gear and use the fuel cutoff to burn no fuel, avoid using your brakes, and shed unnecessary momentum.

    So really you have three methods at your disposal:
    (1) ICE-ON coasting in gear (as long as you are above idle)
    (2) NICE-ON coasting in neutral
    (3) NICE-OFF coasting in neutral (aka FAS)

    You can choose whichever the situation warrants AND you feel safe with.

    At higher speeds power steering is less necessary (and may even be phased out by speed-sensitive assist).

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