"Toshiba engineers have cracked the Holy Grail of electric vehicle batteries..."

Discussion in 'General' started by Carcus, Oct 20, 2017.

  1. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

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  2. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    You can't spell Toshiba without the B and the S. :D Kidding of course. These high density fast charge schemes are always interesting, but the power transfer numbers are staggering. I think smaller batteries with the fast charge may be more useful. Think supercapacitors being recharged every couple of miles. We need controlled lightning strikes for the bigger batteries. :)
     
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  3. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    lol, ..

    Yah, I think those batteries would open up a lot of possibilities, but an "electric F-150" wouldn't be at the top of the list. But small, efficient sedans with a 32 kwh pack, and charging stations with a "utility scale battery bank" spaced every xx miles or so .... maybe the Nissan-Toyota-Honda-Mitsu alliance will "lead the charge" on the island of Japan.

    Here's a discussion on "how to design the stations":
    https://www.engineering.com/Electro...0-Mile-Range-with-Six-Minute-Charge-Time.aspx

    /In the US -- "utility scale battery bank charging stations" next to the wind turbines (like between Dallas, TX and Taos, NM) -- that would be 2 or 3 birds with one stone. Idling the turbines on windy days due to excess output is not uncommon AFAIK,.. On windy days the transportation efficiency goes down, so that would be a bonus in the wind/win.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  4. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    The only issue that I'd be concerned about is what is the life expectancy of these new wonder batteries?

    32 KwH pack that can be charged in five to six minutes is scary just with the amount of heat it would generate during the charging cycle.

    What good are they if they start to degrade too quickly and 36 months down the road you can't get more than a 50% charge?

    Like the saying goes if it sounds too good to be true it probably is.

    I may be wrong but we'll wait and see what happens in two or three years.
     
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  5. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    They're getting better with the lab testing, .. but yeah, there is no substitute for real world and real time. Which is why I don't think any of this will happen at a rapid pace. Even under the most optimistic scenarios, I don't see peak oil consumption happening in less than 10 years, ... likely much further out than that.
     
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  6. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    Right away there are "problems" with their estimations. The most efficient BEV on the market right now is the Ioniq which goes about 105 miles with a 28kwh pack. The Leaf goes about 107 miles on a 30kwh pack. 200 miles on a 32kwh pack? What BEV could do that?

    10 years is long battery life in their estimation? Not in mine. Cost of the tech is conspicuous by its absence in the article. It's good that they're working on better batteries. I like battery-powered tools.
     
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  7. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Probably that NEDC cycle?....
    *edit-- that's JC08, new Leaf is 6.2mi/kWh on that cycle

    Maybe the biggest advantage here would be the 6 minute charge makes BEVs practical for city dwellers without garages.

    The 10 year estimate made it a little more believable to me. (I'm guessing Tesla packs will run out about the same(?))

    I think you have to keep the pack size small if the car is going to go through a pack replacement at mid-life.

    /power tools, fork lifts, e-motorcycles etc., etc... Toshiba stock ought to jump if the batteries are proven real.
    //city cars (like the smart) seem like the most logical application for BEVs imo
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
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  8. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Tapping around on the internets,...

    It appears this is another version of Toshiba's SCib battery (super charge ion battery(?)), which has been around since 2007.
    The SCib battery has been installed in the Mitsubishi imiev (14.5 kwh pack, maybe) but only in Japan. -- would be nice to know how these have held up.

    http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2976
    http://www.scib.jp/en/product/cell.htm

    /although the spec sheet shows no problems at 35c,. .that's still quite a bit cooler than what a Phoenix located or rapid charged battery might expect.
     
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  9. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

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  10. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Carcus:

    Rumor is that Tesla has some Solid State Battery tech they will be introducing very soon in one of their production vehicles. Until that time, the new 390-miles of AER for the 2020 Model S Long Range is closing in on ICE equipped cars other than the charging times.

    Wayne
     
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  11. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Hi Wayne,

    I suppose it's possible that Tesla will trot something out to try and help justify their sky high stock price on "Tesla battery day" .. (if that's still happening).

    I think just about every automaker has some kind of investment in a solid state venture. And, .. it's not like solid state doesn't exist now. It just doesn't exist as a commercially viable product for automobiles. I expect somebody's going to come up with something before the decade is out. But that something may just be for specific applications that can afford the cost. At this point, it's not just traditional ICE automakers that don't want to see anything "super disruptive" hit the market. Tesla has quite a bit invested in their own current technology as well.

    I'm not expecting a rapid transition from the current battery products to solid state. (nor am I expecting a rapid transition to BEVs in general) ... **

    /** I've been wrong before
     
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  12. litesong

    litesong litesong

    Carcus has given his "death to EV future" speech, in the past. The last four words of Carcus may be continued into the future.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
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  13. S Keith

    S Keith Well-Known Member

    If Tesla isn't run by morons, I expect they know more about EVERY battery technology in development than anyone, and they have a staff devoted to researching and vetting every whisper of a new technology out there.

    I would almost bet my 3rd ball that the first EV-viable major battery innovation will be announced, "... in partnership with Tesla."

    If the folks building the batteries are smart, they are going to contact Tesla and every other big EV/battery manufacturer long before the public has an inkling.

    While Tesla has the most invested in their current technology, they have the most to benefit from a technology pivot. They have MASSIVE capacity, infrastructure and a MASSIVE share of the EV market with an already solid product.

    No. I'm not an Elon Fanboi, though his rocket boosters landing vertically gives me a hint of a chubby. I'm just someone who assumes that Tesla management isn't staffed by complete and utter morons.
     
  14. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    So if Tesla brings out a $200,000 roadster packing new batteries with an xx% increase in energy density —— is that a technology pivot? What would that say about the staff at Tesla? Should I sell my Civic and plan on buying a roadster?
     
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  15. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    If Tesla brings out a new battery model Y —— 400 mile range and $27,0000 base price —- would that be smart move for Tesla? or moronic?

    I’m not expecting any rapid transitions,...but hey — I’ve been wrong before.
     
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  16. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Let's not forget that Panasonic more or less left Tesla** and has headed back 'home' to Toyota/Subaru and others, .. who claims they have a solid state battery to reveal at the 2020 summer Olympics ... and who also say they aren't in a hurry to deploy --

    / but if you've got two more, .. I guess you can afford the bet
    //** edit: probably need some clarity here, .. Panasonic's relationship with Tesla at Gigafactory 1 is ongoing, many reports of a strained/souring relationship .. and they opted out of expansion with Tesla ...I think Q4 2019 was their first profitable quarter on the US battery endeavor.

    https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/20...ugh-solid-state-batteries-announce-three-evs/
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
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  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

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  18. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Major chubby !!! Then I go out and buy a Prius Prime instead.
     
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  19. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I don't see that happening any time soon. Unless VW Ford , and GM really step up their game. So...… not really soon.
     
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  20. litesong

    litesong litesong

    Carcus admits to its Tesla short-sell position AND its loss of plenty of money.
     

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