What Will be the Highest Number at the MPG Challenge?

Discussion in 'Events and Gatherings' started by Chuck, Jul 13, 2007.

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What Will be the Highest Number at the MPG Challenge? (non-PHEV)

  1. 155mpg

    4 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. 160mpg

    1 vote(s)
    8.3%
  3. 165mpg

    3 vote(s)
    25.0%
  4. 170mpg

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. 175mpg

    2 vote(s)
    16.7%
  6. 180mpg

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. 185mpg

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. 190mpg

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. 195mpg

    2 vote(s)
    16.7%
  10. 200mpg or better

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. locutus

    locutus MPG Centurion

    Eric, can you let us in on the time limit that has been decided? ;) I realize you don't want someone to be out there for 3 hours, but even with 10 miles of highway it will probably take a lot of people more than 1 hour. 90 minutes or 2 hours maybe?

    Is the SG-II going to be what everyone uses? Or just the priuses and insights that think they might crack 100? I'm asking because I'm wondering if the variability is going to be higher between vehicle aFCDs then it would be between identically calibrated SG-IIs. Is the SG-II going to be the official number that gets used?

    Guys with CAN-view/other tools, isn't it possible to split the ODB2 output so you could have both running?
     
  2. TheForce

    TheForce He who posts articles

    The OBDII port is used by the Can-View. If I had time I would make some kind of Y adapter or something but If I have to use the SG-II I guess I can live with it for 30 miles. Given that there is highway involved I doubt that I will break 100mpg but you never know.

    Also my Can-View is always about 1mpg behind my MFD. I have not corrected it with the settings because its just too close to actual plus I'm just too lazy to press a few more buttons.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2007
  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Jim:

    ___The reason the Prius’ will all be running locked down SG-II’s is for the close numbers. They cannot allow a somewhat calibrated SG-II readout compare to a CAN-View readout even if CAN-View is more accurate. They have to level the playing field where measurement is concerned.

    ___For logging, you can always run the course again and again later to grab all you want but Eric and the team wanted locked down SG-II’s so one Prius can directly compare to the next if they come in real close …

    ___TheForce, too bad about the y-splitter. Can you and Jim find a solution before you arrive? I have plenty of tools at my house so Jim can probably work something out in short order if need be?

    ___Jerad, I think Eric and the gang wanted consistency and to see above 100 mpg, they need to use SG-II’s. The Insight’s already see up into the 150 range accurately but above that, the metric display gets course. I am not sure an SG-II will work out that well for them given any highway and lean-burn is thrown out and for FAS’ing, Honda’s have an annoying lag between ICE-On and ICE-Off where the SG-II records the last ICE-On FE for quite some time :(

    ___To all, I might have an interview on Monday with a Madison reporter about the FE Challenge and Hybridfest 2007 (thanks Bill Robbins!) and I would like to mention a few names and home-towns if that is OK with all of you. Billy, Randall, Justin, Gary and Debbie should be OK with this request and I know where they live but Jim K. and Jerad, could you pass on your last names and home towns via PM?

    ___Thanks in advance.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  4. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

    Again, I can accept that. I've already used SG with decent results, so I know what to look for and expect. Of course with these &^%$*# new tires, who knows?!

    I won't have time to do anything with an adapter of any sort. Don't know how well and whether it would work with CV anyway.
     
  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Jim:

    ___We have a few corners near my home that should help scrub those tires smooth pretty quick ;)

    ___Way OT but you purchased HydroEdge’s? I know some in the Prius community love them but I would not use them myself? Do you still have your Integrity’s? They are not in the same league as the Michelin Energy’s but at least they are scrubbed for an even lower RRc then new?

    ___While I am thinking about it, Eric, I tried to contact you today but received the answering machine. If any of your Media contacts would like to participate in the Sunday morning clinics, I am sure more then ¾ of the members participating in this thread would love to take them out for a ride :)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2007
  6. diamondlarry

    diamondlarry Super MPG Man/god :D

    Or you could let Tom drive it a bit.;):D
     
  7. hobbit

    hobbit He who posts articles

    Wow, it sounds like some serious thought and engineering
    is going into it this year. The SG angle is very cool. I've
    never used one, so it'll be interesting comparing a "precalibrated"
    one vs. my MFD.
    .
    Which brings up a minor question. I'm going to run on my
    Hydroedges, which turned out to be just a wee bit smaller
    than the integrities and when matched up to the GPS, my
    miles traveled shows about 1.2% high. Does someone want to
    take that into account for the unit that goes out with me?
    I could sit here and not mention it and think it gave me a
    tiny advantage i.e. more "miles" per "G", but really, I'm all
    about accuracy. And my trip odo over the course would probably
    show just a touch high anyways. [The Integrities seemed *very*
    closely matched to GPS indicated distance so I'm going to
    call that my 0.00% benchmark.]
    .
    Hopefully those nice country backroads don't experience what
    you'd call a real "rush hour", butcha never know.
    .
    I'm also going to need a safe place to drop all the crap I'm bringing
    along, like the 90 extra pounds of transmission demo, my canopy,
    the *rocks* I use to pin down flyers on the table outside...
    .
    _H*
     
  8. TheForce

    TheForce He who posts articles

    Hobbit brings up good point. Will there be a secure place to store our crap for the duration of the challenge? A place to drop off excess weight? Spare tires, computer, seats, dead hookers etc...?
     
  9. ericbecky

    ericbecky Member

    Looks like it may be best to stay with the Scangauge for the sake of consistency across vehicles.

    Since there's a chance that if both the Scangauge and CAN-view are requesting
    info from the same address there could be communication problems. I don't know anybody who has tried this for sure, but I don't think we want to test it live as part of the Hybridfest MPG Challenge.


    Again, we will only send Scangauges out with those people who think they may be crossing the 99.9 mpg threshold. (We will have about 10 available.)
     
  10. hobbit

    hobbit He who posts articles

    Oh, the other thing I forgot to mention: yep, all the Priuses
    should start hot. Not only warmed up, but past that later
    stage when the rest of the cooling circuit opens up between the
    engine and the bottle, and you get a bit more mysterious engine-
    run time while it's mixing all that around. Full operating
    temp through the entire cooling system, *and* a force-charged
    full battery -- before you come up to the line and reset.
    .
    Another nit in the Prius iFCD, at least in the IIs, is that you
    *must* register some injector-open time before the iFCD starts
    counting. You drift out on electric-only and make the first
    half mile on battery alone, and guess what? You're still at
    0.0 MPG. It needs either a quick engine-on pulse right off
    the line, or another short blip of force-charging after the
    reset just to wake up the calculation.
    .
    I think that latter point was one of the things that donked me
    last year. Headed out with plenty of juice and I probably
    didn't start registering miles until midway through that little
    residential neighborhood.
    .
    Dead hookers? What town are you comin' through, Jay??
    .
    _H*
     
  11. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Jay:

    ___There will be so many Hybridfest people standing around the launch that you can drop everything off right there and it would not be touched. I am probably going to have to drive the Fuel Sucking Pig - MDX out loaded with garbage and you can all store your stuff in it until your run is over if you would like as well?

    ___Hobbit, the Prius records 0 mpg under initial EV but as soon as the injectors open, doesn’t the Prius’ FCD look back at the EV distance traveled and fuel consumed for the total FE calc from the reset? Most vehicles w/ FCD’s in them show similar action. I thought I remember Dan running almost 1.5 miles of EV out of the launch and he still recorded 115 overall via a quick cal’ed SG-I. Try it and let me know as that is something I would not have expected given all the EV switches people have installed in their Prius’ over the last few years? I am almost positive I have seen 99.9 show up immediately upon ICE-On in Prius’ from reset but I wouldn’t bet my life on it :angel: given it has been a while since a reset FCD caught my eye.

    ___As far as warm-up and forced charging, you bet. We even charged up the various Insight’s packs before the various comps and we all know how little that little guy is worth ;)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  12. diamondlarry

    diamondlarry Super MPG Man/god :D

    Mine does that with the SG2.
     
  13. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

    Yes, Hydroedges. My plan had been to replace them anyway before winter. I was wavering between the Energy MXV4+ and one of the LRR Continentals, at least until the former was discontinued. Then an unrepairable road hazard forced my hand on a Saturday. Several tire shops I called said they could get the Contis, but not quickly enough for me to get the donut spare off. From previous readings of tire-related PriusChat and PriusOnline posts, I knew many Prius owners had Hydroedges and were happy with them. And the shops were able to get them from the warehouse on Saturday morning.

    I kept one Integrity to find a wheel to mount it on for a longer-lasting spare, in case I ever encounter another similar situation. Not to carry in the car, but to keep at the house. I thought about buying one Integrity to replace the one with the road hazard, but that didn't seem to make too much sense, given my intention to replace them all with something else in a couple of months.
     
  14. ericbecky

    ericbecky Member

    Time limit
    Time limit is decided. I'll let that be announced at the driver's meeting

    My question to you is, what do you think the time limit should be?

    My suggestion would be to try to get a little closer to real world driving this year.
    90 minutes to go 30 miles? Hmmm.
    The average speed last year was somewhere near 26 mph if I remember correctly.
    So let's seee.... 26 mph average... 30 miles. That's about 1hr 15 minutes.

    Sangauges
    The Scangauge set up will only be for those Prius drivers who think they will be exceeding the capabilities of the MFD. In other words, any Prius driver who thinks they will be cracking the 99.9mpg barrier. All others will go by the display.
     
  15. locutus

    locutus MPG Centurion

    If the 20 miles are through town, with the likelihood of lights/stop signs as well as traffic (real-world conditions :)), I could make a case for expecting an average of 20MPH over those miles. (One look through my spreadsheet confirms it - almost universally, an average 19-23MPH for my entirely in-town segments.) 10-15 minutes for the highway section, plus a buffer for things unanticipated, and 90 minutes seems like a reasonable catch-all.

    I haven't reset and then EV'd for a while to confirm this, but this is interesting. I have confirmed what Larry said about the SG-II handling this (albeit oddly - reporting a very high but not maxed MPG number, often in the thousands, until the first ICE-on).

    Brake and accelerator at the same time while stopped, until 8 bars are reached and the ICE spins down, correct? (I should've practiced this earlier, but since it can't help the overall average... ;))
     
  16. Sledge

    Sledge I like owls with captions

    Then you won't mind if I enter the event and P&G between 5-10 mph. It'll probably take about 8 hours but I'll beat everybody's score. Won't actually mean anything since no one drives like that but I'll win for what that's worth. :D
     
  17. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Sledge:

    ___Go ahead and no problem. 5 – 10 mph will not allow the best FE :( Try it for yourself this afternoon if you don’t believe me!

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  18. diamondlarry

    diamondlarry Super MPG Man/god :D

    One odd thing about how the SG handles this though: When I start out in EV and get to ~20-25 mph and coast, it takes from 1/8-1/4 miles for any number to register which usually starts at ~1,200 mpg. The it gets really weird: If I can coast far enough, the SG will continue climbing until ~4,500 mpg then it will reset to 0 and start counting up again. I also suspect that there is possibly a time limit where the SG will begin displaying FE. When I pick up my wife at work I have to stop before getting on the short stretch of highway. While sitting there, the SG will go from a blank display to mpg over 1K.

    As for the time limit(even though I can't compete), I think 90 minutes is the lowest reasonable limit.
     
  19. mparrish

    mparrish Rosie the Riveter Redux

    This odd behavior is actually kinda useful for those of us without CAN-view. Although I can not yet conclude with 100% accuracy, it appears that more EV = less mpg.

    I start out all EV in the morning now so that I can get to the top of a hill, coast down, and warmup downhill. It's expensive, and it always costs at least 1 bar. But it's worth it.

    When I "surge", mpg drops. As a result, I can somewhat monitor my EV usage by following my mpg up to the point I flip on the ICE. For me, I try to get above 3000mpg at least. If I can up that number to 4000mpg, I'm using less SOC (I'm always trying to use less SOC) :).

    I've never hit 4500 and seen the reset. I also sometimes see odd behavior that makes me wonder whether I really can rely upon it to determine SOC usage.
     
  20. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Larry and Marc:

    ___You guys are throwing monkey wrenches into Eric’s plans now ;)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     

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