What is the most efficient AWD vehicle available in North America today?

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Mar 21, 2017.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I went out on Sunday night and collected the Speed vs FE data for the 2017 Honda CR-V AWD Touring Trim.

    Temps ranged from 58 to 60 degrees F with just a touch of wind out of the East during my NB/SB runs.

    The RPM at 60 is just 1,650 RPM with any slight rise or acceleration spinning the CVT up another 50 to 100 RPM.

    Actual speed as measured per the Garmin was showing .5 to 1 mph lower than actual at 55, 60, 65 and 70 mph.

    Regarding the offset, remember the CR-V has a new even worse capless refueling system so accuracy of the offset is totally suspect. I have never seen a Honda with a 3.3 percent negative offset in years and I suspect the offset is like the Civics and Accords, much closer to 1.0 than what I calculated over my std. 104 mile California drive loop.

    2017 Honda CR-V Touring Capless Refueling Port

    [​IMG]

    2017 Honda CR-V Touring Calibration Drive

    [​IMG]
    LAX Shell to Del Mar, Calif. Shell -- 104.0 miles/1.841 gallons = 56.5 mpg.​

    The aFCD offset was 56.5/58.5 = 0.966.

    2017 Honda CR-V Touring Trim Speed vs FE Results

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The EPA 33 mpg speed crossover occurs at 67.7 mph which is in line with its ratings. Again with the asterisk of a negative calibration which is probably too negative given our recent history with various Honda's. I wish I had the chance to drive over 1,000 miles to lock in that offset. :(

    Wayne
     
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  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I added more detail to the review - engine bay, sun visors, and conversation mirror, incl. the above Speed vs FE chart. We will call this one a wrap until I can get into a 2017 Honda CR-V for a much longer drive distance to calibrate the aFCD for the offset.

    Wayne
     
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  3. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    I agree with TFF. City traffic with traffic lights is what start/stop tech is good at. California stop and crawl belongs to hybrids and EVs. If one has ever shut off the engine at a stop light, that person is a candidate for the auto-stop. I agree not for everyone... but the more instances produced, the cheaper and improved it'll get.
     
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  4. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Rough math would be only 1qt gasoline per hour with that little 1.5 idling. 5 minutes idling per day would be .02 gallons/day.

    If that fuel flow is close, it'd be near impossible to justify auto start/stop.
     
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  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi The Ford Family and Bill:

    We have done some analysis on this here in the past. An SG-II showed the 1.8L in the Corolla consuming about .2 gph. My son is over this afternoon.

    2003 Toyota Corolla LE

    [​IMG]
    1.8L I4 indicating approximately 0.2 gph at idle.​

    The math that Carcus just posted is solid. You cannot make up for this no matter how many Start/Stop actions occur over the course of your daily commute. :(

    Wayne
     
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  6. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    Look at it from the point of view of needless pollution, and from lost mpgs. A 30 mpg car (reasonable and optimistic for a typical car in the city) would have traveled a tenth of a mile more with the fuel burned for every minute stuck at a traffic light and idled at 0.2 gph (.00333 gallon). Multiply that by the number of car-minutes idling every day and you get some real numbers. Maybe the right solution starts with better traffic control. It drives me crazy when I see "dumb" traffic lights. Implement start/stop for the same reason we chase ever increasing mpg numbers. Annual cost of fuel difference is minimal between 50 mpg and 55 mpg, but do we say it isn't cost justified? Fuel cost should not be the motivator. Every bit helps for saving the planet. And retro fit all the FSPs already!

    And besides, that will make it more difficult to leave a car idling for long periods. We have anti-idling laws in Massachusetts, but likely not enforced.
     
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  7. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    Is that a question? In many places, easily a couple of minutes when hoping to enter a busy highway at the wrong time of day. Obviously a lot less when there's no traffic coming. Plus roughly a minute at every stoplight that turns red at the wrong moment, sometimes more than once per light if it isn't green long enough to let the whole line of cars in front of you through.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  8. Blackbelt

    Blackbelt Well-Known Member

    When my wife is commuting in the smart, she knows exactly where and how long the worst red lights last. She shuts down the ICE at those lights. While she is not saving a ton, i certainly want to encourage any behavior like that, as it shows me she recognizes and is trying to do her part. She routiniyl and easily exceeds the EPA rating of the smart. In fact, she does a lot of mixed driving and exceeds the highway rating by 4-5 MPG all the time. She gets 41-42MPG all day long with a 34/38/36 rating.
     
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  9. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    That's rational. When I had a manual car, I shut down the engine at stops only when I knew they'd be lengthy , on the theory that the wear and tear (on battery, starter, switch, etc.) of restarting would exceed the value of fuel saved by shutting down at short stops. I did shut down while coasting to a stop, since I could restart without the starter.

    I don't fully understand why some people are so violently opposed to start-stop systems in all circumstances. Admittedly the way the Prius stops the engine at very brief stops (for example, at a stop sign when no traffic is coming) during a certain phase of warm-up is annoying. Sometimes that can be avoided by requesting heat.
     
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  10. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I do try to minimize the number of start/stops if at all possible.. Not exactly sure why , but I did drive non-hybrid cars for 40-some years before the Prius. When I had the 08 Civic , I would shut down at red lights quite often , if I suspected it would be lengthy. Until the time I was stopped in the left lane at a red light (poor planning) put the car in Park , then the battery FAILED when I tried to re-start it. It's almost impossible to get it out of gear (safely) when that happens. The tow-truck driver had to winch the car , front tires locked , up the ramp of his truck. In a manual car , I would push it off into some nearby shoulder or parking lot and then go buy a battery.
    Today , I can't imagine driving ( at least the typical suburban slog ) in anything but a hybrid or BEV.
     
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  11. Chris12

    Chris12 Well-Known Member

    Hi Wayne,

    That's impressive Speed vs FE for an AWD vehicle. Do you have any sense of how the 2017 CRV would compare to the 2017 Rav4 hybrid in Speed vs FE?
     
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  12. Chris12

    Chris12 Well-Known Member

    Also: the 2017 Subaru Impreza Hatchback, which has a 37 mpg EPA highway rating. It would be interesting to see how the Impreza, CRV, and Rav4 hybrid compare in Speed vs FE....
     
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  13. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Well-Known Member

    Um, the Tesla Model S is the most efficient AWD vehicle available today.
     
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  14. WriConsult

    WriConsult Super Moderator

    I was going to point this out too. Even among gas-powered cars, the Impreza is EPA-rated considerably higher than the CR-V 1.5T. Maybe under Wayne's testing (where Hondas always exceed expectation) the CR-V might still beat the Impreza? Then again, we all know Wayne's feelings about Subarus.
     
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  15. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Neil:

    Not imho. The S' well to wheel emissions, efficiency, and stupid high price can fall short depending on where you live.

    Dan, you have been gone for a while. The all-new Imprezza and CrossTrek are pretty darn nice. ;)

    Wayne
     
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  16. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    They (Subaru) had Wayne at "pups"... :D
     
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  17. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

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