2017 Toyota Prius Prime: Price + Content + Efficiency = WOW!!!

Discussion in 'Toyota Prius Family' started by xcel, Oct 3, 2016.

  1. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    There's very little panache associated with TCO. ... unless you're whittling on the country store porch, ... or chatting on Cleanmpg.
     
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  2. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    For those who really want a pure EV, none of the PHEVs will fit the bill. But I agree with the last few posts that there is the Tesla name for some. For the best TCO (with that assumption of low electricity costs), a used EV is hard to match. Thinking used Leaf now, or a used Bolt in a few years... The Prius Prime is a great compromise.
     
    xcel likes this.
  3. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    The (so far) unknown here is how long will the batteries last?

    A PHEV has a big advantage in that you don't have to "top off". Prime and Volt are using something like 65% to 75% of total capacity. Where as BEV's will use closer to 90% (or even more). My understanding is there is quite a bit of battery longevity difference between those numbers.

    I just don't think a highway capable BEV (i.e. 60 kwh +) is going to work out in the "for the masses" category IF the battery won't last the life of the car.

    The PHEV has a "battery life TCO triple advantage" in that
    1. the battery will last longer
    2. When the battery starts weakening, the car is still usable for quite a while
    3. If you DID have to replace it, the replacement cost doesn't kill the car.

    Everybody can run there own numbers the way they see it. But I don't see replacement battery packs (BMS incl) running less than $200/kwh. ... and I don't see gasoline running higher than $8/gallon. Therefore I don't see a "for the masses" way forward for highway capable BEV's unless the BEV battery is good for the life of the car.

    /BEV city cars are another story
    /high end BEVs (like the X,S, and likely the 3) are another story
    /autonomous BEV taxis are another story
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
    all_about_the_glide, BillLin and xcel like this.
  4. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    The Tesla story is still yet to be told, but I think the S's may see a fairly rapid decline in the battery starting at about the 5 1/2 to 6 year point, and become unusable 2 to 4 years after that. Hopefully, I'm way too pessimistic on that.
     
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  5. kbergene

    kbergene Active Member

    I agree with all of what you say, with just one more condition:
    /under current technology.
     
    xcel likes this.
  6. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Yep. .. and without 6 or 8+ years of Proven data to show for any new technology, or an Ironclad warranty (-- which aint' gonna happen) ...then it's just "buyer beware".

    So, unless you're leasing, buying any long range BEV seems like it's gonna be risky business for some time to come.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
    ALS and xcel like this.
  7. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    One more (negative) thought on long Range BEVs -- recycling.

    We have been told that used lithium ion batteries:
    A. will live a second life as backups to the power grid
    B. will then be valuable as a recycled product

    It's possible that neither A nor B is true. So far, we've seen batteries die off pretty quickly (steep degradation vs cycle curve) after they reach 80%,... so why would they then be useful (valuable) in another application, knowing that they are set to die soon?

    In contrast to getting paid for, there very well may be a disposal fee for used batteries, .. the bigger the battery, the higher the fee.

    http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/battery_recycling_as_a_business
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
    xcel likes this.
  8. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I began the first charge to measure kWh input from the outlet at 04:40 pm PST this evening.

    2017 Toyota Prius Prime - First Charge

    [​IMG]
    Initial: 118.1V - .5 W w/ the charging cord plugged in. 0.0 kWh
    Begin Charge: 112.0 V - 1,301 W - 0.04 kWh​

    The charger is taking in a bit more power from the wall outlet than I expected. Most PHEVs and BEVs plugged into a 120V outlet usually peak at just over 1 kW in my experience and this one is taking in 1.3 kW to begin and 1.276 kW at the 1 hour and 10 minute mark.

    The pack has taken in 1.52 kWh at the 1:10 minute mark so it should be complete in 4:40 to 04:50 after beginning the charge from flat.

    2-hour mark: 2.5 kWh in - 1 of three Blue LED charge indicators lit on the dash.
    3-hour mark: 3.8 kWh in - 2 of three Blue LED charge indicators lit on the dash.
    4-hour mark: 5.1 kWh in - 2 of three Blue LED charge indicators lit on the dash.
    4.5-hour mark: 5.6 kWh in - 2 of three Blue LED charge indicators lit on the dash.
    4.66-hour mark: 6.0 kWh in - 2 of three Blue LED charge indicators lit on the dash.


    I opened the door at this point and it lit up the central display showing 50 more minutes to fully charged. This means it is going to consume nearly 7 kWh to fill the 8.8 kWh total capacity of the Li-Ion pack. With an assumed 6 kWh useable pack (25 kWh/100 miles and 25 miles of AER EPA ratings), could the charger fed from a 120V outlet be just 85 percent efficient?

    5-hour mark: 6.3 kWh in - 2 of three Blue LED charge indicators lit on the dash.
    5.33-hour mark: 6.7 kWh in - 3 of three Blue LED charge indicators lit on the dash.

    The Prius Prime's charger fan is much quieter than the charging fan in the first gen Prius PHEV-11 for the first 6 kWh of charge. Around the 6.15 kWh consumed mark, the Prime's charger and fan are noticeably louder than they were for the first 6 kWh of charge over the previous almost 5 hours.

    At the 5.33 hour mark, the wattage input fell from 1,267 to just 840 W, amperage indication fell from 11.xA to just 7.5A, and the charger fan quieted back down again. She is in the final top off phase for sure.

    The Gen One Prius PHEV charger generated some heat that I am not really noticing as much in the Prime. Maybe different venting areas?

    Wayne
     
    kbergene, TheFordFamily and BillLin like this.
  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    While the charging continues, there was something else I noticed about the Prime that I missed at the reveal in NY last year, in Japan, and at the short lead. Pretty obvious too.

    The Dual Wave rear glass was touted as helping reduce aero drag to make up for the plastic grille additions up front and the less aerodynamic rear corners vs. the 4th gen Prius. Something else it does is provide a better view out of the back of the split window. The dual wave glass actually dips in the center providing a better view directly behind with very little obstruction actually. I hope the following mirror shot gives you an idea as to what I see through the rear view.

    2017 Toyota Prius Prime

    [​IMG]
    Dual Wave rear glass improves rearward visibility.​

    Wayne
     
    TheFordFamily and BillLin like this.
  10. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    Wayne, if you have the luxury of time, you might check out whether 110V charging works as efficiently as 240V charging. I've read somewhere about different charging efficiencies at different charging power levels, though not on the Prime. I'll keep my eye out for specs but cannot promise success.

    Thanks!
     
    TheFordFamily and xcel like this.
  11. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bill:

    I could probably find a 240V Level2 and fill for the speced 2 hrs and 10 minutes after another complete drain but I do not have a ChargePoint card to have a readout sent to me after a fill was complete. I only have it for one more day and I am going to try and complete some steady states in it after midnight tonight as well.

    Wayne
     
    TheFordFamily and BillLin like this.
  12. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Along with the hour by hour play by play on the charging sequence posted four posts above (2017 Toyota Prius Prime First Charge hourly updates), the first full cumulative charge from flat looked like this.

    2017 Toyota Prius Prime - First Full Charge

    [​IMG]
    120V Outlet back to 116.9V, 0.02A, and 0.5W for the plug. 6.81 KWh added in 5.66 Hours. 26.6 mi AER indicated.​

    And again that pesky 5.7 mi/kWh appears in the Drive Monitor2 display. That must be the Prius Primes' Lifetime electrical efficiency when on the plug across a number of journalists??? The daily is showing 0.0 mi/kWh for the past 4-days which is thankfully a good thing.

    [​IMG]

    The possible charger efficiency of 6 kWh useable/6.81 kWh filled = 88.1 percent. A few variables there but probably not far off from actual.

    Now a few minutes to grab a bite and head out to try and get some steady states complete. Unfortunately my (2) ScanGauge-IIs do not have the latest firmware to watch SoC on a percent basis so I cannot complete steady states as an EV on electric only and then the std. Hybrid mode steady states with the accuracy I would have liked. I can see a small maybe .3 to 1 mm SoC delta in Charge Sustaining (CS) mode. It does not consume and refill as wildly as the Hyundai/Kia drivetrains do so I should have something once I burn this 26 miles of AER off.

    I am thinking about using Hybrid mode to get to the Interstate, run up to 60 mph, set CC, and push the EV button with whatever range is indicated and if we are within 50' elevation start to finish, it provides a range that anyone could get in decent conditions just by setting CC just like the Steady States mimic. I know you are asleep now so I am just thinking out loud but this should provide some indication of electric efficiency.

    I suspect the EPA highway crossover will occur south of 70 mph so maybe I should complete a 65 mph AER true range as a steady state addendum instead of 60 mph?

    Enough of my ramblings and thanks for listening to it all. Now back to work.

    Wayne
     
    kbergene, TheFordFamily and BillLin like this.
  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I completed the 65 mph run under EV mode and the steady states. Temps ranged from 60 to 62 degrees with a 0 to 5 mph wind out of the west on a north bound drive.

    The EV Mode drive began with 26.2 miles of AER indicated, 100' elev., CC set to 65 mph, and pushing the HV/EV mode button to begin EV mode.

    2017 Toyota Prius Prime - 65 mph EV mode segment

    [​IMG]

    The Prius Prime completed the run after 26.9 miles indicated, 27.3 actual miles to 00.0 or --.- miles, 60' elev., and CC set at 65 mph.

    [​IMG]

    Sorry about the picture quality. At night with a car moving pretty quickly and I was lucky to get these two out of the 10 or so I snapped in quick succession with one hand.

    2017 Toyota Prius Prime (mi/kWh)

    [​IMG]
    EV Mode at 65 mph provided 26.8 miles Indicated - 27.3 miles actual, at 4.4 mi/KWh​

    If we take the 4.4 mi/kWh as nearly correct, it shows the Prius Prime consumed between 6.13 and 6.27 kWh to drive the 27.3 miles. Better yet, the 25 mile range, 25 kWh/100 mi or 4 mi/kWh rated Prius Prime provided 10 percent over its EPA 25 AER and mi/kWh rating at 65 mph.

    To maintain 65 mph I had to bump the CC up to 66 and even 67 mph at some points. CC was 1 mph over indicated which was .5 to 1 mph over actual at 65 mph per the Garmin.

    I am pretty beat and it is 04:00 am. I will begin setting up the steady state graph tomorrow afternoon. Along with starting the monthly sales nightmare, getting ready to head to the Atlas short lead on Tuesday morning incl. the 85 mi drive to LAX through morning Rush hour. :(

    Wayne
     
    ALS, kbergene, Carcus and 2 others like this.
  14. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    Great idea for the 65 mph AER and amazing results. Thanks for everything including the wall charging efficiency. Certainly in line...

    Sleep well. :)
     
    kbergene, xcel and TheFordFamily like this.
  15. rhwinger

    rhwinger Well-Known Member

    Hard to believe the Hero Shot is from a cell phone Wayne. Looks good!

    Thanks,

    Bob
     
    kbergene and xcel like this.
  16. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    MPG steady states... Vs the 2016 Prius ii eco.

    Several factors at play, but sounds like you have better conditions (less wind (crosswind) and higher temps. Should be interesting to compare.

    /if memory serves, the (bigger battery, but heavier) Gen iii plug-in did better on the steady states than the Gen iii no-plug(?).
     
  17. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Carcus:

    The comparison between the two is interesting. Working on it now.

    Wayne
     
  18. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    The first Speed vs FE graph. Working on the Prius Two Eco comparison graph after this post.

    From the first measured calibration drive of the 2017 Toyota the Prius Prime Premium (55/53 mpgUS city/highway) in Charge Sustaining (CS) mode provided a rare positive offset (104.7 mpg/102.5 mpg) of 1.021.

    [​IMG]

    The steady state drive(s) was undertaken just after midnight last night with temperatures ranging from 61 to 63 degrees F and winds calm to 5 mph out of the west while completing the northbound and southbound drives.

    The EV Mode drive was just over 27 miles and began in North San Diego and finished up in North Camp Pendleton on the I5. See result of the 2017 Toyota Prius Prime 65 mph Charge Depletion (CD) mode) test above and as linked.

    The indicated speeds at 50 and 55 mph actual per the Garmin were approximately equal to actual. For 60, 65 and 70 mph, the speedo was .5 to 1 mph long. Meaning 60 to 61 mph, 65 to 66 mph, and 70 to 71 mph were needed to drive at 60, 65 and 70 mph.

    [​IMG]

    The EPA highway (53 mpgUS) crossover came in at 72.8 mph which is excellent and should equate to a 54 mpg highway rating.

    The only caveat to the graph is how I was trying to account for SoC changes at 50 and 55 mph. The small decrements I was seeing accounted to eye balling about .2 mm above and .2 to 1 mm below the top of SoC baseline as the entire range of used SoC in CS mode is only about 12 mm tall in total with the range within the top 1.5 mm of that total height.

    I “guess”timated each .2 mm accounted for approximately 1.5 mpg added or subtracted from that speed and directions result. Again only for speeds of 50 and 55 mph as the 60, 65, and 70 mph result showed the SoC stayed relatively stable at the top of the small cross indent.

    Here is a close-up pic of the SoC display to give you an idea where the indent was and how I was trying to measure SoC at the recording of each final result at the given speed and direction.

    [​IMG]

    I am so stupid because if I had a ScanGauge-II with the latest firmware, I could have possibly seen the Prime’s SoC to 1 percent in real time making the 50 and 55 mph results shown much more accurate. Eyeballing .2 to .8 mm is about as close to a guess as I would ever attempt but I did record each result and where that SoC was sitting within the small display.

    Wayne
     
    kbergene, TheFordFamily and BillLin like this.
  19. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Just like the first gen Gen III Prius PHEV-11 based off the Gen III vs. the Gen III Prius, the second gen Prius Prime PHEV-25 based off the fourth gen in CS mode vs. the Prius Two Eco Prototype from last year shows how much more efficient the MG1 Ice-Lockout Clutch is.

    Given the large disparity, it also makes me want to get a hold of a consumer release Prius Two Eco on this exact route for another full calibration and steady state drive afterwards so I know I am comparing apples to apples here. And a ScanGauge-II with the 4.15 firmware to cover the SoC range in both. The Prime handedly beat the Two Eco more than the similar EPA numbers would indicate.

    [​IMG]

    Prius Prime Premium (55/53 mpgUS city/highway) in CS mode indicated its 53 mpgUS EPA highway crossover came in at 72.8 mph which is excellent and should actually equate to a 54 mpg highway rating.

    The indicated speeds at 50 and 55 mph actual per the Garmin were approximately equal to actual. For 60, 65 and 70 mph, the speedo was .5 to 1 mph long. Meaning 60 to 61 mph, 65 to 66 mph, and 70 to 71 mph were needed to drive at 60, 65 and 70 mph.

    The Prius Prime in CS mode Steady states were completed in temps from 61 to 63 degrees F with winds of 0 to 5 mph out of the West on the multiple North/South runs.

    2017 Toyota Prius Prime

    [​IMG]
    Minutes before the EV mode and CS Mode Steady State drives last night.​

    Prius Two Eco (58/53 mpgUS city/highway) Prototype indicated its 53 mpgUS highway rating crossover occurred at 67.9 mph so the 53 mpg rating appears solid although with little room on the downside before falling 1 mpg.

    Speedometer at all speeds between 50 and 70 mph were one mph over the actual speed as recorded on the Garmin.

    The Prius Two Eco Prototype was completed in temps from 52 to 57 degrees F with winds of 5 to 10 mph out of the West on the multiple North/South runs.

    2016 Toyota Prius Two Eco Prototype

    [​IMG]
    Minutes before the Steady State drives early last year.​

    Wayne
     
    kbergene and BillLin like this.
  20. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    If I was going to guess I'd say a little less than 1/2 of the Prime increase (vs Eco) in SS is from wind and temps. Whatever the case, those are awesome steady states.

    Pretty darn efficient on electrons OR gasatrons. Prius Prime -- built for the future.
     

Share This Page