The Honda jet-4mpg-figure 4 passengers 16 passengers miles/g-

Discussion in 'Fuel Economy' started by phoebeisis, Dec 14, 2015.

  1. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    The Honda jet gets about 4 mpg-\
    claimed range is 1300 miles
    tank holds 2300 lbs-maybe 400 gallons
    guessing that means you might use 80% of the fuel-to get 1300 miles??-300 gallons 1200 miles
    anyway 4mpg 4 passengers 16 "mpg"

    Is this good for this sort of jet??
    You have to land and refuel- 2x to got LA NYNY
    so a cross country trip is 12 hours maybe-plus a car trip to where you are actually going??
    Wayne-how long would it take you-2 drivers-sleeping in the back
    to drive a 3.0 Dodge-with a cabin or camper top-cross country??

    How long did the Midwest to LA trips-you guys did then with the Honda diesel-and the Prius a few years ago- maybe 1000 miles took 20 trip hours-so 50 hours cross country-with sleep breaks
    Not so sure that traveling-in say a Dodge modified van-with modern communications
    isn't better than 4mpg travel to save 30 hours??
    Not as if folks can't work while being driven??

    The planes-really pricy- not sure they really make sense??
    Not with comfortable "cars" and 30mpg at 70 mph Dodge 3.0 td(in a van like configuration)
    with full communications available-and Full comfort
    the primitive suburban was an extremely comfortable way to travel-
    stop every few hrs to avoid DVT-leg clots etc-and to walk "A.R.T.Y" bio-alarm

    A jet that can't cross the oceans?? needed a car at the other end to get where you are going
    isolated in a POD-instead of seeing the country

    BAH HUMBUG! ZILLION DOLLARS to save 30 hours-?? not as if the person can't communicate and work in a nice van?
     
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  2. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    Anything under 1200 miles in most cases it's cheaper to drive. Once you pass 1200 miles (1 to 2 passengers) airline travel makes better sense with time and money. The best is either taking a bus or train if you're going for the best passenger miles per gallon.
     
  3. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Right
    This jet has just 1200 mile range-why so little range??
    Duh-because fuel is heavy if you get just 4 mpg-you would need 700 gallons-over 4000 lbs of fuel-to make it cross country.
    My late wife and I drove from New Orleans to Flagstaff in 24.5 hours once
    actual 1510 mile trip time-24.5 hours
    Crude guess is this jet would take 4 "flying hours" plus 1/2 hour preflight plus 1 hour getting to airport plus 1.5 hours-or more refueling+ 1 hour on the destination end to get to actual destination
    so 8 hours and 400 gallons
    vs 25 hours-70 gallons in suburban-or 50 gallons in a van like Dodge 3.0
    17 hours saved worth $5,000,000 plus 8X the fuel consumption-
    and the BIG maintenance bill-maybe $1000 per hour flown-

    With modern communications- time saved isn't really TIME SAVED- and modern SUVS or converted vans-much more comfortable than flying-even 1st class flying with 300 of your best friends

    Who agrees that a CEO needs to travel like this??
    These corporate jets-are toys-write-offs we pay for -
    Trains could be nice-but my suspicion is they don't/won't make $$ and cents sense in our Long distance low passenger volume routes

    "Someday" we will have wind turbines along interstates with "storage" of some sort-water towers maybe
    200 mile range fast charging BPs-BIG ONES- that could push a comfortable decent sized vehicle-
    and NUKES spead out over the country to cover for NO WIND
    Yeah we will still be able to do the USA road trip-with no to very little CO2 output
    Nukes and wind-
    and "someday" fusion ha,ha
    PS In HS I took the greyhound bus- 50 miles 75 minutes-to school both ways-
    not bad-bet buses are better now-
    they had a heavy diesel stench back then-open door-exhaust fumes came in-but buses were more comfortable than current planes

    PPS I took a local route train home once-1964-wrestling meet-too late for the bus-it took 6 hours-same trip-needless to say that isn't a passenger route anymore-not local route anyway-
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
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  4. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    The Honda Jet's NBAA IFR reserve range is 1180nm (1357 statute miles) and that range includes reserve fuel of 200nm to a secondary airport in case the primary is unavailable, fuel for a certain amount of circle time if the airport is congested, etc. It's a pretty conservative range figure. The Honda Jet could easily make it from LA to NYC (~2500 statute miles) with one refueling stop. The Honda Jet's lrc (long range cruise) speed is 378kn (~434mph) but that can vary quite a bit depending on the wind. If we assume no wind, then the trip time would be roughly 8 hrs including the fuel stop.

    The Honda Jet perhaps isn't the best jet for ranges where a refueling stop is required but it really shines within it's range. Jets drink a lot of fuel compared to a turbo prop or piston engine plane, but neither of those aircraft can fly as fast. Sometimes things really need to get from one destination to another as quickly as possible. If you, or a loved one, needs a liver in Driggs, ID and one suddenly becomes available in Milwaukee, you'd probably be very glad that we have a pretty good small jet network in this country.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
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  5. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Jay
    Interesting stuff
    so figure final destination to final destination-2500 va plane maybe 2800 via "car"
    10 hours vs 50 hours-
    Usually the best transplant centers are in BIG CITIES-some are hubs-but some aren't

    What is the -cruising speed- and FE same size planes
    Turbo prop
    piston
    Hey does anyone make a Turbo Diesel plane?
    I know the germans had a long range Diesel WW2 plane(not sure if it was Turboed)-maybe they used it over the atlantic-for recon. ?
    Must be some good reason they never caught on-weight would always be a problem

    I think not so long ago-on this forum-we compared the human miles per gallon FE of the 787-and it was very good-maybe 20-25 mpg-at 550+mph-pretty sure it has pacific ocean range -
    heck of a plane which-we hope-has its lithium battery pack problems behind it
    Those little electric skate boards-are catching fire-
    lithium BP's tricky-made in China perhaps not a great idea on some things-

    I had a lithium battery "explode" in a flashlight
     
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  6. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    Honestly, I don't know much about small jets and turbo props. They're a little out of my price range. I've always admired the Piaggio Avanti EVO turbo-prop for it's looks:

    [​IMG]

    http://www.avantievo.com/

    range: 1720nm (1979mi)
    top speed: 400kn (fastest turboprop made)
    several floorplans available to seat up to 9
    price: $7.4M fully equipped
    don't know the fuel burn though

    Piston engine planes aren't in the same league at all speed wise. The fastest piston single engine passenger plane was the Lancair IV at about 250kn. It could seat 4, but not with the room of the Honda Jet. Also, piston engines can't fly way above the weather as a jet can. There is a 2-stroke diesel available for small experimental aircraft but diesel's are a tough sell because they generally weigh more than gas engines.
     
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  7. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    IIRC, regional 737s with a full compliment are in the 75 to 100 mpg per person equivalent range. Only when full however.

    The short range is the one thing that will hurt the HondaJet. Private Business Jets need to travel 2,500 nm without refueling. They just do.

    The Super Range Business Jets ($50 to $70 million USD) have 6,000 to 7,500 nm range but are priced out of the HondaJets target customer.

    Wayne
     
  8. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Wayne
    hmmm-100 person miles per gallon- in 2 people Prius range-yeah my 20-25 was waaaay waaaay off-
    and 1200 mile range for a $5,000,000 plane-uncomfortable plane??
    The 787 claims 20% better FE-so...

    Jay-
    WOW- pretty plane
    I have always said the Italians are incapable of making ugly metal "stuff"-
    The little fiat cars-I liked the tiny boxy one with the rear engine- 1950's-1960's-and the 124-and various alfa's
    the famous little scooter -
    those beautiful bike parts
    various firearms
    various supercars
    many planes-those sea plane racers from the 1930's(but the limey's actually out-prettied them with the father of the spitfire sometimes form/function do go together)

    The japanese and the germans finally learned to mimic the Italian stylists
    heck look at that UGLY people's car-then the VW "sports car"-same car but......
    and the poor japanese car stylists-they tried to mimic euro-USA styling(1960's 1970's) but they ended up with cars that looked like they BELONGED in Godzilla movies-guessing they finally hired italians

    Italians have a nice touch style wise-that is a pretty plane

    Just 250 knots-270 or so real mph??
    Wonder why no one converted a Mosquito to passenger plane??
    Too thirsty I guess-2 big V-12's guessing FE per mile in that Honda jet range-or worse

    Oh-looked up Mosquito specs--seems to indicate 5 mpg?? but another cut suggested 2mpg

    The Mosquito PR Mk 34 and PR Mk 34A was a very long-range unarmed high altitude photo-reconnaissance version. The fuel tank and cockpit protection armour were removed. Additional fuel was carried in a bulged bomb bay: 1,192 gallons which was the equivalent of 5,419 miles (8,721 km). A further two 200-gallon (910-litre) drop tanks under the outer wings gave a range of 3,600 miles (5,800 km) cruising at 300 mph (480 km/h). Powered by two 1,690 hp (1,260 kW) Merlin 114s first used in the PR.32. The port Merlin 114 drove a Marshal cabin supercharger. A total of 181 were built, including 50 built by Percival Aircraft Company at Luton.[115] The PR.34's maximum speed (TAS) was 335 mph (539 km/h) at sea level, 405 mph (652 km/h) at 17,000 ft (5,200 m) and 425 mph (684 km/h) at 30,000 ft (9,100 m).[116] All PR.34s were installed with four split F52 vertical cameras, two forward, two aft of the fuselage ta
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
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  9. Mustang Dave

    Mustang Dave semi-experienced hypermiler

    Diamond Aircraft makes one.
     
  10. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Mustang Dave
    Thanks

    Looked it up- crossed the Atlantic-non stop-
    The DA42 Twin Star was the first diesel-powered fixed-wing aircraft to make a non-stop crossing of the North Atlantic, in 12.5 hours, with an average fuel consumption of 5.74 gallons per hour (2.87 gallons per hour per engine).[6]

    Figure 6x12.5= 75 gallons to cross atlantic
    3000 miles/75=40 MPG ???
    Is that right 40 mpg at close to 200 mph??

    Even if its route was just 2500 miles- still well over 30 mpg at close to 200 mph

    And this plane can go cross country non stop-meaning maybe 12 hours LA NYNY
    vs perhaps 8 hours for the $6,000,000 jet
    Granted the jet-is cool
    and the TD max altitude is 18,000 feet-can't climb above weather-but that is what a radar and weather updates are for-fly around

    An uncomfortable 1200 mile range $6,000,000 plane-just doesn't make enough sense
    Needless to say I won't be buying one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
  11. wxman

    wxman Well-Known Member

  12. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Wxman:

    Very interesting. Not the Biomass Jet Fuel but the engine for private and small commercial planes.

    Wayne
     
  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

  14. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Wayne
    No -seems too good
    I just used a guess on distance-3000 miles
    see you have found a more likely distance
    still 30 mpg-is hard to believe-
    Guessing it was at decent-thin air-altitude-maybe 15,000 feet-guessing 60% of sea level pressure?
    Even 30 mpg at that speed??
    Something to be said for TDs-
     
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  15. some_other_dave

    some_other_dave Well-Known Member

    My grandfather told me that the US had tried diesel aircraft in the 30s, but the vibration was too much of a problem. I'm sure that weight was also a problem, because in aviation weight is always a problem.

    One of the Jumo (Junkers Motors) engines was a supercharged opposed-piston two-stroke diesel engine.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_205

    Wikipedia also has an article about aircraft diesel engines.

    -soD
     
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  16. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    soDave
    Cool article-thanks!!
    I must say the description sounded like Typical Teutonic engineering
    A very clever solution to a problem- the crummy 2 stroke FE-
    By having the intake in one piston-exhaust in the other-with exhaust opening and closing BEFORE intake-with the pistons sharing a cylinder
    But typically German- it was TOO CLEVER-
    but waaaay cool.

    According to the article-the best TD warplane was a Flying Boat-long range- good FE-at reasonable power output-
    The engines of this type tended to fail when pushed at full power-
    and war planes-frequently are pushed to full power-
    so the engines were best in airships and in the Flying Boat
     
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