482,000 VW TDIs Produce 5 to 35Xs the NOx Beyond Federal Emissions Requirements

Discussion in 'Volkswagen' started by priusCpilot, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Tuesday, March 8, 2016

    VW's labor chief says big U.S. fines will hit workers' jobs

    Reuters - Anfreas Cremer

    Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) may have to cut jobs in the United States as well as Europe and other countries depending on how big a fine has to be paid for its manipulation of diesel emissions tests, the carmaker's top labor official told a meeting of 20,000 workers at its German headquarters on Tuesday.

    The U.S. Justice Department has sued Volkswagen (VW) for up to $46 billion for breaching U.S. environmental laws‎, while there is still no fix for nearly 600,000 cars affected in the United States almost six months after the scandal broke.

    The extent to which VW may be forced to cut jobs to help meet the costs of 'Dieselgate' depends "decisively" on the level of fines, VW's works councils chairman Bernd Osterloh said on Tuesday at the meeting of workers in Wolfsburg which was also attended by the carmaker's top managers...

    Europe's largest automaker employs over 600,000 people at around 120 factories worldwide, including 270,000 in Germany. Its U.S. plant in Chattanooga, Tennnessee employs about 2,200 people...

  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Tuesday, March 9, 2016

    Volkswagen Group of America (VWoA) President and CEO Departs Effective Immediately

    VWoA today announced the departure of Michael Horn, President and CEO, Volkswagen Group of America.

    Through mutual agreement with Volkswagen AG, Horn will be leaving to pursue other opportunities effective immediately. On an interim basis, Hinrich J. Woebcken, who was recently announced as the new Head of the North American Region and Chairman of Volkswagen Group of America, will assume the role of president and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America.

    Michael Horn.​

    Volkswagen thanked Horn for his contributions to the company during his tenure in the United States.

    Michael Horn (54) assumed the role as president and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America in January 2014 and has over twenty five years of experience with the Volkswagen Group. Prior to his current role, Horn served as the Global Head of After Sales at Volkswagen AG (VW). Horn joined Volkswagen in 1990 and has held many roles of increasing responsibility within the brand over his tenure, including Head of Volkswagen sales North West Europe, Head of sales and marketing luxury class vehicles, and Head of sales for Europe.

    On a personal basis, he appeared to be a thoughtful individual that was not afraid to tell it like it was. I will miss him.

  3. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I doubt he had anything to do with the cheat software. He may not have even known about it. But heads must roll in this sort of situation, I guess.
    xcel likes this.
  4. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    Wonder if the new guy will last longer than his predecessors

    Michael Horn - 2014-2016
    Jonathan Browning - 2010-2013
    Stefan Jacoby - 2007-2010
    Frank Witter - 2005-2007

    Maybe VW should hire an American who truly understands this market, rather than another European market veteran. Worked well for Hyundai.
    xcel likes this.
  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Mike:

    Very very good point. I knew Jonathan and Michael and they were pretty good at what they do.

    IMHO, VW needs to let loose their VW design team instead of forcing them to put out less attractive products so they do not impinge on the Audi moniker despite sharing platforms. Nissan is doing this now and it is working out quite well to the chagrin of Infiniti. Just an opinion from someone without the knowledge of how the internal strife is being handled.

    Edwin, not a chance he knew anything about it. He was way to far away from drivetrain design.

  6. Airbalancer

    Airbalancer Well-Known Member

    what is happen with all the cars with diesel engines, are they just sitting in a lot somewhere ?
    xcel likes this.
  7. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Airbalancer:

    VW has bought most of the new and used dealership stock back already.

    I may be speaking out of turn here. IIRC, TDI owning Consumers can trade theirs in at a VW dealership for the same Bluebook that they were worth just before the story broke. Which means another VW unless it is a group dealership possibly? Not a good solution regardless although I wish I could find an owner trying to dump his 14 or 15 Passat TDI with a stick for $10k. Not seeing it. :(

  8. rfruth

    rfruth Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Mar 12, 2016
    xcel likes this.
  9. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    When Uncle Sam comes to visit , a house-cleaning is a nice gesture.
  10. Airbalancer

    Airbalancer Well-Known Member

    In Ontario every two years, or when you buy a used car you need to get an emission test so you could be screwed since TDI cannot pass the emission testing you cannot get plates. I wonder what happening with people who just need the emission test to get plates renew ? ????
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  11. brick

    brick Answers to "that guy."

    Don't forget that these TDIs made it through because they were specifically programmed to pass an emissions test on a dynamometer while polluting on the open road, so I suspect periodic emissions testing (under existing protocols) isn't really an issue. Plus in a lot of cases diesel emissions testing is nothing more than a smoke test. Existing owners should be fine. Any future government action that inhibits existing owners' ability to use their cars...which they purchased with the understanding that they were "clean"...would be a dick move to say the least. I don't see that happening unless this turns into some kind of mandatory buy-back, which to my knowledge would be unprecedented and therefore very unlikely.
    BillLin and xcel like this.
  12. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    We knew this was coming...

    FTC Charges Volkswagen Deceived Consumers with Its “Clean Diesel” Campaign

    Seeks Compensation for Those Who Bought or Leased Affected VW and Audi Vehicles over Seven-Year Period

    The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has charged that VW Group of America deceived consumers with the advertising campaign it used to promote its “clean diesel” VWs and Audis, which Volkswagen fitted with illegal emission defeat devices designed to mask high emissions during government tests. The FTC is seeking a court order requiring Volkswagen to compensate American consumers who bought or leased an affected vehicle between late 2008 and late 2015, as well as an injunction to prevent Volkswagen from engaging in this type of conduct again.

    In a complaint filed in federal court, the FTC alleges that during this seven-year period Volkswagen deceived consumers by selling or leasing more than 550,000 diesel cars based on false claims that the cars were low-emission, environmentally friendly, met emissions standards and would maintain a high resale value. The cars sold for an average price of approximately $28,000.

    FTC Chairwoman Edith Ramirez:
    From Volkswagen's "Three Old Wives Talk Dirty" TV spot

    According to the FTC’s complaint, Volkswagen promoted its supposedly “clean” cars through a high-profile marketing campaign that included Super Bowl ads, online social media campaigns, and print advertising, often targeting “environmentally-conscious” consumers.

    For example, VW promotional materials repeatedly claimed that its “Clean Diesel” vehicles have low emissions, including that they reduce nitrogen oxides (NOx) emissions by 90 percent and have fewer such emissions than gasoline cars. In fact, the FTC’s complaint states that they emit up to 4,000 percent more than the legal limit of NOx — a dangerous pollutant that contributes to environmental harms and respiratory ailments.

    The complaint alleges that Volkswagen also claimed that “Clean Diesel” vehicles met “stringent emission requirements,” were “50-state compliant,” and would maintain a high resale value. Yet, according to the FTC’s complaint, these claims were also false because without the illegally installed software, the “Clean Diesel” vehicles would not have passed federal emissions standards and the hidden defeat devices will significantly reduce the vehicles’ resale value.

    The FTC also charged that Volkswagen provided the means and instrumentalities <-- Is that a word??? -- for others to deceive consumers, and that installing the emissions defeat devices was an unfair practice.

    The affected vehicles include 2009 through 2015 Volkswagen TDI diesel models of Jettas, Passats, and Touareg SUVs, as well as TDI Audi models. The suggested sale prices for the affected vehicles ranged from approximately $22,000 for the least-expensive Volkswagen model with a 2.0L engine to approximately $125,000 for the most-expensive Audi model with 3.0L engine.

    The Commission vote authorizing the staff to file the complaint was 4-0. The complaint was filed in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, San Francisco Division.

    NOTE: The Commission files a complaint when it has “reason to believe” that the law has been or is being violated and it appears to the Commission that a proceeding is in the public interest. The case will be decided by the court.
  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    A friend of mine was on NewsMax yesterday and had a few interesting things to say about the FTC lawsuit directed at VW and the 3.0L TDI may soon be cleared.

  14. wxman

    wxman Well-Known Member

    This is admittedly somewhat complicated, but the following is what I get for life-cycle damage costs to public health and the environment of three versions of the 2015/2016 VW Golf ("cheating" diesel (TDI), 1.8T (TSI), e-Golf).

    The damages are based on cost benefits EPA uses to calculate for its most recent regulations (e.g., Draft Regulatory Impact Analysis: Proposed Rulemaking for 2017-2025 Light-Duty Vehicle Greenhouse Gas Emission Standards and Corporate Average Fuel Economy Standards, Table 7.1-6.4-1, page 7-2, http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/climate/documents/420d11004.pdf).

    Damage costs per EPA...

    VOC - $1,300/ton
    NOx - $5,500/ton (vehicle use)
    NOx - $5,300/ton (fuel production and distribution and vehicle manufacturing)
    PM2.5 - $300,000/ton (vehicle use)
    PM2.5 - $250,000/ton (fuel production and distribution and vehicle manufacturing)
    SOx - $32,000/ton

    Conversion - dollars/ton X 1 ton/2000 pounds X 1 pound/453.6 grams X 100 cents/dollar = cents/gram

    VOC - 0.143 cents/gram
    NOx - 0.606 cents/gram (vehicle use)
    NOx - 0.584 cents/gram (fuel production and distribution & vehicle manufacturing)
    PM2.5 - 33.069 cents/gram(vehicle use)
    PM2.5 - 27.557 cents/gram (fuel production and distribution & vehicle manufacturing)
    SOx - 3.527 cents/gram

    "Cheating" TDI emissions are based on the results of the ICCT/WVU study of "real-world" emissions of the 2013 Passat TDI (Thompson et al., "In-Use Emissions Testing of Light-Duty Diesel Vehicles in the United States." International Council on Clean Transportation Report, May 15, 2014), which used SCR, similar to the 2015 Golf TDI. The Passat TDI NOx emissions in the WVU report averaged 1.07 grams/mile in the "urban" tests, or over 15 times the FTP regulatory limit (0.07 grams/mile).

    The latest version of Argonne National Laboratory's GREET model (GREET_2015) was used to calculated emissions from fuel production and distribution, and vehicle manufacturing. The most recent U.S. electricity mix was used in GREET, which is December 2015 (http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/mer.pdf (Table 7.2a)), in which over 34% of electricity comes from NG generation; less than 28% from coal.

    The GREET_2015 output files based on this grid mix are available at...

    Diesel - http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/muncie/GREET1_2015 Diesel Output.png
    EV - http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/muncie/GREET1_2015 EV Output.png
    Gasoline - http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/muncie/GREET1_2015 Gas Output.png
    Manufacturing - http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/muncie/GREET2_2015 Output.png

    The default GREET values were adjusted as follows...

    2015/2016 Golf

    TDI curb weight (per VW) - 3100 lbm = 3100/2980 (weight assumed in GREET2)
    TSI curb weight (per VW) - 3000 lbm = 3000/2980
    e-Golf curb weight (per VW) - 3391 lbm = 3391/4270 (weight of EV assumed in GREET)

    TDI fuel mileage (per EPA) - 31.9222mpgge = 31.3 mpg (diesel mileage (gasoline equivalent) assumed in GREET1)/31.9222
    TSI fuel mileage (per EPA) - 29.1989 mpg = 29.992 mpg (SIDI gasoline mileage assumed in GREET1)/29.1989
    e-Golf fuel mileage (per EPA) - 113 mpgge = 111.6 mpg (EV mileage (gasoline equivalent) assumed in GREET1)/113

    Also included the e-Golf charged exclusively on solar PV. By the way, all of the GREET calculations include well drilling and infrastructure, and EGU construction, such as emissions created during the manufacturing of PV panels according to GREET.

    The calculations...

    e-Golf on U.S. mix charging - 0.1653 (operation) + 0.1669 (feedstock) + 1.2129 (fuel) + 1.0570 (manufacturing) = 2.6021 cents/vehicle mile traveled (VMT)
    Cheating Golf TDI (@1.07 g/mi NOx) - 0.8282 (operation) + 0.3743 (feedstock) + 0.2548 (fuel) + 0.9045 (manufacturing) = 2.3618 cents/VMT
    Golf 1.8T (2016) - 0.4186 (operation - GREET default) + 0.3224 (feedstock) + 0.6445 (fuel) + 0.8753 (manufacturing) = 2.2608 cents/VMT

    Here are the results graphically...


    So to put things into perspective, for full life-cycle damages to public health and environment, the "cheating" TDIs are only marginally worse than the gasoline version (TSI), and actually not as bad as the e-Golf in most grids in the U.S.
    Gord and xcel like this.
  15. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Wxman:

    Wow, just wow!!!

    wxman likes this.
  16. TheFordFamily

    TheFordFamily Well-Known Member

    That's incredible math! Thank you for putting this together!
    wxman and xcel like this.
  17. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    There is an upcoming deadline tomorrow where they may finally release their plans. Or it may just get pushed back again. :/
  18. rhwinger

    rhwinger Well-Known Member

    Thanks Wxman. That was pretty interesting.

    wxman likes this.
  19. rhwinger

    rhwinger Well-Known Member

  20. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

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