Car and Drive Question for Exel!

Discussion in 'Fuel Economy' started by philmcneal, Feb 23, 2006.

  1. philmcneal

    philmcneal Has it been 10 years? Wow

    Did you ever had to replace your starter for any of the vehicles you own? How about that 12 volt battery? And what's your technique to coast when using an automatic? :D
     
  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Phil:

    ___You caused Bob Wilson a fit over at GH with these questions, didn’t you ;) Although I do not know him personally, I do read some of his posts and from the tone, I think you caught him on a bad day or something?

    ___Back to the point … The short answer is No, No, and sure.

    ___The longer answer is a bit more detailed. Although I ride the starter more then most, it averages anywhere from 2 - 5 miles between starts when considering all the highway driving the Accord sees. With the Ranger, a lot more since she is my around town driver much more of the time. Because the Ranger is a 5-speed MT, I restart via the Clutch in a taller gear then I would normally use while in a particular speed range. This spins the ICE up at a slower rate then if I were using a lower gear for a given speed range. The reason is that this technique is usually far less harsh … I alternate between a clutch start and the gear reduction starter motor in an ~ 2 or 3:1 ratio.

    ___12 V batteries … Now that is a loaded question. It depends on temps and time of day. When we are below 20 degrees F here in Chicago and I am driving at night, I cannot ride the 12V nearly as long as I can when its 50 degrees F or higher during the day. In a Warm up P&G scenario at night in 20 degree temps as an example, I might loosen up a warm up P&G with a slower acceleration so as to keep my ICE-On time up (alternator bringing up the SoC on the 12V) to a 10 - 40, 20 - 40 mph cycle. The key is slower accelerations to keep the ICE-On time up, the FE during the pulse somewhat higher and easier on the car when it’s that cold. The downside is lower overall FE during the warm up. In a warmer temp - day scenario, I might take her up to 35 mph and glide back down to 10 through the subdivision, parking lot/city/alternate warm up route. I can usually tell the Accord’s 12V cap at night while looking at the light pattern out in front of the car since it does not have a battery gauge in the cluster. The Ranger always gets clutch restarts from dead cold in a warm up P&G but I do watch the Battery Voltage meter in it because of ICE-Off w/ Lights. When the Ranger’s battery gauge hits a particular level, I pulse up with a clutch restart no matter if I really needed the acceleration or not. Then there is the extreme cold warm up routine with the 12V in mind. Because the 12V cap suffers just as NiMH and Li-Ion’s in the hybrid’s at extremely cold temps, you have to be very careful given your current capability is at an absolute minimum. In other words, you cannot rely on the 12V to start the car much more then 2 or 3 times during an extremely cold - night warm up. In this case, I will use a Neutral ICE-On coast or NICE-ON as a neutral coast is more fuel efficient then a D engaged coast down. Once the car is up to running temps, you just take it easy on the smallish 12V and you will not have any problems. IN warmer temps, just touch it every few miles and you are OK. Hit a 10 mile stop and go nightmare while riding the 12V and starter, you will be replacing parts in short order. Again, temp and accessory use conditions out weigh all FE saving considerations. Manage the pack just as you would with a hybrid and you are good to go.

    ___Automatics … Now this one can go any number of directions. My daughter is a manager at Avis O’Hare so I have some very limited experience with other manufacturers automobiles when she visits. First off, some auto’s are better then others in a straight FAS to a stop and/or a P&G with re-engagement from higher speeds. You might want to look in your owner’s manual and find out if your car can be flat towed as this is a strong clue as to the tranny’s FAS capability. If you own a Ford w/ Auto, you can just about throw HS P&G’s out of the equation as their re-engagements in the Explorer and Expi I have driven are all over the map in terms of RPM’s, re-synch re-engagements, and NVH. I would have to guess that a typical Explorer Auto tranny would not last more then a week the way I cycle Auto’s. The larger GM Auto’s (older and newer LeSabre’s, Grand Prix’s, and Malibu’s) are a dream as they act as if they are in N until such time as you reapply some accelerator pedal after a FAS. Honda’s tranny’s are pretty good overall too including the 03 - 05 HCH-I w/ CVT, 06 non-hybrid Civic w/ Auto, 06 HCH-II w/ CVT, 01 – 06 MDX, and 03 - 05 Accord. The exclusion is the 05 AH. The AH’s tranny issue is beyond this threads level so we can talk about its problems in detail in another thread … I do not drive Dodge’s enough to say one way or the other? Anyway, the technique I use in the MDX and Accord is Shift to N, FAS at a settled RPM, hit the lower target or stop, start and re-engage the tranny w/ the startup rev match. This technique can be very very smooth if performed correctly.

    ___I have to take my son to a basketball practice so I will edit out the obvious mistakes in this post when I get back. I hope this answered some of your questions?

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  3. philmcneal

    philmcneal Has it been 10 years? Wow

    wow that is a handful of answers, I'd better re-read to be sure but here's a few things I noticed:

    - About auto trannies, the Camry 91 is EXCELLENT to coast with. Everytime I let go of the accelerator the rpms drop as if I were in neutral and I can coast for a very very long time. I could put it in N and drop it by 100 more but I don't think its that worth it (maybe?). Only time rule is overridden if the hill is actually very very steep, then RPMS will rise to provide engine braking.

    - What do you think the percentage difference is between FAS glide and Neutral glide? (I find gliding in neutral helps me decide, when I should FAS since you want to maximize that time as much as possible and as much distance as possible correct? Bigger bonus if the glide comes to a stop and you have to wait a bit =D)

    - As long I can bump start with the clutch smoothly, I'm enforcing no wear and tear except on the clutch? Is it a technique I can abuse as much as I can since I want to travel with the ICE off most of the time if the situation allows it (no one behind you, steep incline, flat, anticipating stop)? I also notice its better to clutch in neutral before attempting to shove it into a gear and bump start, rather than clutch in as you putting in the gear it feels as there is more resistance this way.

    - I notice by keying off and on often it sends my fuel gauge to go out of wack. Sometimes half, sometimes 3/4 and sometimes full. Any ideas?

    - I usually have no radio, and no heater when FASing. I need my 12 volt battery more than ever. Its too bad my Honda doesn't have a battery gauge, but is the warning red battery gauge good enough?

    - What's the slowest speed you ever bump started? How do you deal with uphill traffic jams? That must be tough to P&G there! Any tips for P&G in stop in go traffic? Do you key off and bump start in that kind of situation too?

    - This is my car by the way, number 1 http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/50-litre.htm without the side skirts and the spoiler... do you think those make a difference? I was thinking of adding some coveralls for my back wheels. This is why I think my car has high potenial to easily surpass hybrid figures.

    That's it for now, I'll think of something when I get back from class.
     
  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Phil McNeal:

    ___I want to commend you for asking the right questions but remember, a hybrid has a distinct advantage over and above a non-hybrid including your Civic if that was the car you referred to as car #1? Some have a smaller ICE or an intake, MGSet, and pack trick or two to make them superior in the FE department. A hybrid’s fault is they were not all designed properly to begin with and that is where a non-hybrid can take advantage if driven into the envelope that some hybrids cannot go.

    ___When I was an active participant over at GH, we followed the 50L challenge and IIRC, and there were very few comments? The problem being that there was nothing from the group a committed hybrid driver couldn’t destroy or a committed hypermiler in something much larger and supposedly less efficient couldn’t do while just taking a Sunday cruise.

    ___And on to your specifics. First, I want to know if you are committed to higher FE and lower emissions for a lifetime or just want to play around to see what’s possible and then go back to a life of who cares, its only gasoline and emissions. It is that important to me …

    ___Camry’s do coast excellent as they simply let go. The newer ones even in Drive do a nice job of ICE-On coasting. Their in lyes the rub. ICE-On gliding/coasting cannot achieve nearly the FE that ICE-Off gliding/coasting does. I have some figures from my PZEV Accord that you might be interested in?

    Reset FCD w/ 2.1 miles total. 52 mph - 28.4 mpg initial when FAS performed at overpass sign just before a high speed off-ramp and coast into a gas station. Final 50.0 mpg.

    Reset FCD w/ 2.1 miles total. 54 mph - 29.9 mpg initial when a Neutral ICE-ON coast was performed at overpass sign just before a high speed off-ramp and coast into a gas station. Final 41.2 mpg.

    ___This N vs. full FAS was over ~ .6 miles of the 2.1 miles in total. The initial acceleration over the first 1.5 miles had an ~ 150’ climb. See the difference between the two?

    ___Clutch starts do wear on the clutch plates. There is nothing you can do about it but you can help decrease the wear by not re-engaging at 60 + mph or way out speeds like that. The advantage of a MT is that you can be back on the ICE in < .25 seconds vs. a hybrid’s MGSet Start in .5 to > 2 seconds as I was recently informed by a friend of mine (Gary G out of Jupiter, FL.) who runs an Escape HEV to FE numbers nobody has touched …

    ___Fuel gauge going whacky is an issue with whatever car you own. I have issues with the non-hybrid PZEV Accord’s aFCD not taking into account ~ 10 seconds worth of acceleration after a FAS/P&G. Nothing I can do about this either other then finding the NAVI circuit and making it hot with a time delay to handle the 2 seconds or so from IG-II to IG-I and back to IG-II.

    ___The battery warning light is not good enough in the Accord. I cannot say how it acts is in whatever you are driving?

    ___That should be enough for now. You really need to take some baby steps before jumping into a full blown all-out hypermiling regiment. This can be very dangerous if you are not at the absolute top of your game. With all the gyrations, it can be worse then talking on a CEL phone while drinking a can of soda and changing radio stations. Work on your FAS technique(s) and we will take you into an uphill, downhill, flats, high speed, and low speed techniques to be used when and where a particular traffic situation presents itself. Hypermiling doesn’t hold back others nor does it mean you are going slower then others all the time. If you are in a traffic jam, DWB by building buffers and if the guy behind you is PO’ed, that is his or her problem because he or she can only move as fast as the bumper in front of you is moving. At that point, I don’t care about slowing down others because they are not going anywhere anyway …

    ___Please please be careful. Take the small steps first and you can progress towards some truly impressive FE in the warmer months later when you have many more hours of hypermiling technique experience under your belt.

    ___Good Luck and keep me informed.

    ___Wayne
     
  5. philmcneal

    philmcneal Has it been 10 years? Wow

    :D Hey Wayne! Right back at ya :D
    Oh indeed Wayne I have many more questions where that came from. I can bug you all night if I wanted to ;) although I'm the kind of guy who worries about the, "Little" details rather than whats outside the box. Yes that is my Civic although think black with no spoiler and side skirts. Where I think a hybrid lacks is the conversion process from mechanical to electrical, I think that's where the efficencies are most pointed to don't you say? Then again they were created for clean air not mileage.

    ___
    I'd do it all the time if it means almost doubling my gas money. Also its awesome to know you can do something that no one else can ;)

    ___
    From the looks of it, I can keep this up for a long time. I just realized this puts the fun back in driving more than ever! My driving style has changed but amazingly the time I arrive there really hasn't been affected. Its almost like an ephiany of some sort. Wayne from the photo albums you shared I think its pretty obvious squeezing every single gallon of gasoline is very important to you and I can see why now!

    ___
    wow I knew there was some difference in the two glides. FAS glide is much more satisfying anyway. Ironically I like the feel of the brakes and steering too, since I get bored of just turning the wheel with one finger. Although I find on my Civic after 5 pumps on the brakes the vaccum depletes and I'd have to bump start again.

    ___
    Well I guess a hybrid has to delay the startup so that wear on tear on the engine can be reduce doesn't it (spin the engine at a X RPM to wait until oil covers all the cylinders before firing fuel into the engine) as opposed to clutch yanking the engine to start at 2000 rpm and then settle back into neutral and then rising again to go into gear. Sounds like the engine is abused ;( although Iam working on smoothing out the technique. It seems when I bump start the rev shoots up and I'm waiting for the revs to drop so I can just rev match it again in gear! Flew :eek: although I'm trying to time it so when the rev climbs I can shove it into the appropreate gear immediately. Then again I keep restarting the engine at high glide speeds (usually 30 mph) so I'm trying the habit of restarting at a lower speed for prolonging clutch life if people wouldn't tail gate me so often!!
    At the end of the drive it settles down so I'm not too worried about it. At least you have a FCD! I have nothing but my recepts at the gas pump and my odometer whom I reset everytime. And yes I fill gas to the click, no bs 10 bucks here and there. Chevron gas everytime, same station, same visa, and usually same pump too :)

    I only get a red battery light I guess if its low... I'll have to use my judgement. Although sometimes I like music to drive but I don't use the cd drive (power hog). I use a radio hooked up to my FM trasmitter and mp3 player so thats a good efficent solution, as well I turn my base all the way down and my treble up so I'm sure that minimizes power useage as well :p Heater and ac off always of course!

    My baby steps would be gliding in neutral and then practicing bump starting when no one is behind me. See I'm more worried about the guy behind me rather than what's in front of me, sometimes taking too far as I stare into my rear view mirror too long! I know I'm always the slower driver out of everybody (funny we always meet at the same stop light you speeding jerk!) and I had people mess me around trying to make my fuel savings even more difficult. I wish I can drive under ideal conditions then I"d always glide till I'd reach 10 - 20 km/h rather than 40 - 50 km/h in most situations. Yes I believe hypermiling doesn't hold back others or its a slower way to do things. Its just a more efficent way to get there with the least amount of energy, when people realize how much they save and how time means very little because at the end; the car will get there. People just keep underestimating how fast a car can be...

    Always, your scenerity is uttermost appreciated as well as your humble advice. Right now I have to go buy a map and make a few visualizations on how my trip will affect my FE. I know its not about the "shortest" distance but rather on, "Which road will help me glide the farest in the least amount of energy?" So knowing your own city is pretty important (which I'm half way there =D) as well taking to the fact how many hills you go down, and how many hills you go up on the way home. But there's a few things that still bug me:

    - P&G ing up a mild incline, my glide ends faster than ever! In these conditions is it even worth shutting off the ICE?
    - So far I'm just working on gliding till 45 km/h (bump start in 5th) rpms shoot up, settle, rev match to 3rd (2500 rpm) and then 1/3 throttle to extract all the avaiable torque from my puny engine (3300 rpm) and then back into neutral. Revs drop to the usual 500 rpm, key off, key on to regester speedo and wait usually.... from 75 km/h to... lets say up that mild incline would be... 15 seconds for it to go back down to the mid 40 km/h. Do you have a minimum requirement before attempting to FAS? What are your conditions?
    (minimum coasting distance, minimum ICE off time, weather, number of cars behind and in front of you, number of lanes, passengers (can you hypermile without raising concern?), terrian, cops, ambient temperature and speed) .
    I think that should cover it hehe :cool:

    - I have a bad habit of "over reving" when trying to rev match a gear (usually 500 to 1000 rpms over), what happens scientifically to the clutch when I do that?

    Darn its late, but one thing for certain 100 km on the speedo and still pointing at full! Well maybe 9/10 of the tank ;) I have a habit this winter of filling the gas tank every 1/2 and usualy my speedo reads around 250 km for all city driving (temps around 0-10 degrees) but from what I see so far it looks very very promising!

    Had to cut some quote because i exceeded 10000 characters, what does DWB stand for again? Buffer as in, "Let the guy in front of you go first and wait till he stops so you can judge how much pulse you need to glide right next to his bumper again?" Boy I'm going to piss off a lot of people with that one haha.

    And coasting and gliding is the same thing yes?

    Night Wayne have a good one until next time!
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2006
  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Phil McNeal:

    ___Lots to cover …

    ___A hybrids startup delay is not about covering the cylinders or valve train with oil, it is about bringing the ICE up to a proper and far less damaging light off RPM and then letting the injectors and plugs fire it off. IIRC, the Prius II fires off just 2 cylinders at ~ 1,000 RPM on a restart vs. the Honda’s which fire them all off at ~ 1,000 RPM. Once you have experienced a Hybrid ICE start, you will wonder what we have been doing to our poor cars for the last 100 years w/ their poorly designed gear reduction starter motors!

    ___Do not hold onto a FAS when someone is riding your rear bumper ;) It is time to move out of their way or speed up. I have no idea about your daily drive, the alternatives available, the type of traffic, or the average road speeds but you have to make traffic work for you. It sounds like you are forcing traffic to work in a manner that you so choose? This is not the best of strategies in which to employ a HS P&G or straight up FAS to a light.

    ___At 30 mph, you would want to bring the ICE up off the clutch while in 5th gear. You should not see anywhere near 2,000 RPM if performed correctly. Remember, a gear reduction starter brings the ICE up into the 150 RPM range before light off. A hybrid’s MGSet starter brings them up to ~ 1,00 RPM before light off. There is absolutely no reason to force a 2,000 RPM bump. You have to get those revs down under all speeds. Holding onto 2000 + RPM is the exact wrong thing to do unless under a P&G scenario and even then, there is no reason to shorten the life of your automobile with harsh starts and jamming everything in if you can help it. Gentle, smooth, and error free is what you want to pursue. Your FE will soar once you get the hang of it.

    ___In regards to an FCD, the Ranger and Corolla do not have them either but once you have a few tens of thousands of miles behind the windscreen of a hybrid, you kind of feel what is going on and can make blind adjustments that you would not have thought possible without an i or aFCD. Might I suggest a Scanguage from www.scanguage.com to start? I have to speak with the owner again as I have some ideas to improve its use for the hypermilers amongst us but for now, it is about the only thing going at a price most anyone can afford …

    ___12V management. When in a HS P&G scenario, I will not use any accessories other then the radio while ICE-On to grab a quick listen to the traffic reports ahead. In the warmer temps, you are almost forced to use the A/C Fan at max flow (not A/C) but that is about it. When in a close or distant draft, I run everything just as everybody else does.

    ___Stop worrying about the guy behind you and get him out of the way before you FAS! If you are a large nuisance, you are causing people to burn more gas around you then you are saving for yourself. I travel through the Chicago Interstates on an almost daily basis and there are times when no techniques work and you just have to bite the bullet. When an opportunity opens up, you grab on and enjoy the ride :D

    ___P&G’ing up an incline and your Glide ends up faster? That doesn’t make sense to me? You are exchanging Kinetic for Potential and you will always slow down when pulsing up an incline? Are you talking about the back side or descent afterwards? What you want to attempt in that case is control your crest speed so as to not be screaming well above the limits on the descent. If possible of course because you cannot glide down a steep mountain without ending up at far beyond safe and or speed limited velocities …

    ___You have to try and stay away from that 3,300 RPM stuff if you can help it. Never over rev on a Rev match. Just get it done at the right RPM and smoothly. You can and will engage off the gear reduction starter at speed with less NVH then most do when they start out in the morning once you get it right. Trust me on this. There is no sense destroying your car for the sake of 10 mpg’s if you are having to jam things in at the wrong RPM’s. It just is not worth it.

    ___DWB is “Driving w/out Brakes”. Place that mindset into your vernacular when in heavy traffic and your FE will climb yet again. Coasting and Gliding can mean the same thing but not necessarily. A coast can be ICE-On or ICE-Off with the automobile in Neutral. A glide has been interchanged with coasting but it’s an HSD/eCVT/HCH-II CVT specific technique to minimize energy conversion.

    ___Finally I hope some of this helped and once again, practice your new found techniques away from others for all our sakes ;)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  7. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles

    WOW!!!

    Phil I think your over thinking it just a tad. :D

    Accord is a great hypermiler even with the crappy 5AT. Ive all but given up in ours. The wife will destroy my efforts in just a few short miles.

    The 06 Civic is a lousy coaster. But on the upside its a great load driver with the 5MT. It is easy to get into 5th gear at low rpm shifts in city driving. Also pretty good at 1st, 3rd, 5th gear shifts. Ive been able to tell when my Civic is running like a 1.5L engine under light loads. But its hard to keep it there ,, say like a HCHII in EV mode. All mpg reported in my Civic is my driving. Wife does not drive the Civic. ITS MINE!!!

    I dont worry about others drivers behind me. There are min. and max. speed limits. If Im speeding and come up on a car driving 50 mph. Its my problem not theres. If Im coasting at 49 mph trying to get a 2 mile coast in and somebody comes flying up behind me foot in the gas going downhill its there problem. Min. speed limit is 40 mph so screw them. On two lane twisty roads I dont hypermile much. Im the guy that starts heel and toe :) . So Im the agressive driver at that point. OOO and the Civic is good at it. Cant wait to Auto-X it this spring.

    Take lastnight, wife and I went out to dinner in Tulsa and then swung by a Indian Casino for some slots action. We had a wonderful time. I didnt do extreme hypermileing, but I did drive on the conservity side. And enjoyed the company of my wife on our little 100 mile round trip last night. I made a point to drive under the posted speed limit, coasted some and watched traffic flow. I didnt surf, load drive or coast ICE off or coast up to lights ICE off and then restart. Many would scuff that I didnt employ my whole bag of tricks. But it was more important to me to enjoy my wife.

    My problem is ME!!! Im likely to stray away from a 40+ mpg tank in favor of a sprited 10 miles on a twisty two lane road.

    Wayne is the MASTER. I enjoy his post very much. But I understand Im not him. I wont drive all out FE all the time no matter what. One thing you will notice of our master is he is not a granny driver. He post very good FE with good MPH ave's. He makes this point from time to time to nay sayers. I love those threads.

    The Accord lends itself very well to this type of driveing. It has one component our Civics dont have, torque. Given that i think our Civics have 50 mpg tanks in them. But its going to take Xcel type habits to get it. Only car Ive ever done 50+ mpg in was my Festiva. Was easy to do in a car that got 40 mpg with the AC on at 70 mph. LMAO.

    I look forward to seeing the best of Xcel's teaching and what you do with it.

    psy
     
  8. philmcneal

    philmcneal Has it been 10 years? Wow

    hey psy I tried bump starting in 5th gear at 50km/h and it did it very smoothly. Although I don't understand what you mean by "letting out the clutch" (letting go of it or press it all the way in?) but I did try having my foot hover above the throttle and let the clutch out till the friction point (when it starts gripping) then I let it out some more and when I hear that "click" i press the clutch all the way in again and the engine is alive at a low rpms!!!! very smooth wow but I cannot do it in the back of my head just yet.

    At 50 km/h its pretty easy I guess to bump start in 5th with no hiccups and no distrubance to the passenger compartment. But where I have trouble is bump starting at lower speeds than 30km/h, I can hear the click but the engine is still idling at 0 rpms ;( Any tips?

    As for Xcel, what was the lowest amount of miles that you drove in between before using the key technique again?

    I just filled up with 180 km on the odometer (could be higher since there were intervals I forgot to key II to regester the mileage) and the nozzle clicked at 12.50 litres. So i guess 13L/200 km? 20% highway, 80% city.

    DAMMIT still the same mileage, still can't break that magical 6.5L/100 km (35 mpg) oh wells until next time.
     
  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Phil McNeal:

    ___I had just 4 FAS’s out on the highway before I hit my in town portion of my commute this morning … Longest in between is ~ 25 miles normally. Shortest … In one of Chicago’s infamous bumper to bumper stop and goes, about 4 feet ;)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  10. philmcneal

    philmcneal Has it been 10 years? Wow

    All right after much practicing I incorporate a lot of FAS gliding into my daily route to school (13 km average there) and I've been trying a lot of routes to maxmize engine off time. I finally found it and this number I'm giving you now is just going to get better and better and better =)

    and remember folks, ALL I DID IS READ THIS THREAD AND tried to study Xcel's driving habits. I haven't checked my tire pressure for over a month now (last remember 44 front, 42 back, 50 recommended) and my average temperature by day is 10c (50F) and 3C (37.4F) by night. This is with a honda civic 2004 coupe with the standard 115 horsepower engine with no vtec. 5 Speed manual transmission no spoiler, steel wheels on 14 inchers, front bumper is cracked on the right, there's a small dent in near my left gas tank and a NOS sticker sticks right on the gas door. OH I've had my mistakes BUT never at high speed collision, I don't plan to anyway with no liability since I'm prepared to pay for my mistakes. Although lately (ever since I met my wife I guess) I haven't made any at all! It just goes to show my driving style has radically changed in the past three years. From crazy car fast wannabe to hypermiler, and I'm glad I made the change!

    On days when I was bored at some point and sometimes in class :p I thought about the different routes and visualize pulsing and coasting towards home since there are a lot of routes I can choose from. The idea is to make the terrian work for you. A lot of my routes incorporate (what goes down must climb back up!) true BUT ONLY If you take the exact same route back home. If you take an alternate route that's a bit farther but allows you to coast for very long periods of time and if you spend more time going down then up, then you pretty much figured out how I achived this remarkable number. Remember, improvements are plentiful :)

    Stats:

    Same gas station, same brand, same location.

    180 km nozzle clicked at 12.50 litre (6.5 with 80% city and 20% highway) which translate to 6.94L/100km (33.9 mpg US) when I began reading this thread and was learning how to bump start and all that goody stuff. With practice under your belt and my ability to try to do things I ended up with my 2nd fill right at 100.2 Km on the odometer and it reads at the pump:

    5.4L or $4.61cnd (**** the reciept didn't print this time!) for 60 miles in the city or 43.6 mpg US. There was absolutely no highway at all and my average speed was 50km/h (31 mph) when I'm crusing (1800 RPMS @ 4th gear) and when going into a glide I aim for 65km/h (40 mph) to 70km/h (43 mph) to coast (even though speed limit fluxs on various roads from 60km/h (37 mph) to 50km/h (31 mph)) I cheat a lot and try to coast down to 40 km/h (24 mph) or lower if I'm really lucky haha and people have to pass me but there's two lanes for a reason and why I stay on the right. (Or left if its an SUV hehe, go ahead cut me then you can extend my glide FOOL!)

    That's about it, I'm aiming for 50 mpg or 4.7L/100km. Once I get there then I don't know, I really don't feel like being pulled over by a cop and getting a ticket that would shatter all my savings...which I forgot to tell you I was cruisng until the light turned red. So I pulled up stopped, key off, lights off and handbrake on. Then waiting I hear this, "TURN BACK ON YOUR HEADLIGHTS!" very loud and I jumped and keyed everything on idling like any normal citizen. Turns out a RCMP cop was on the opposite side waiting on the red light too! **** I thought my hypermiling days were over...

    ... but less than $4 to go 100 km is very very tempting when filling up at the gas station i saw a nice car with rims I liked. I asked the guy, "What car?" and he goes "infinity m35" I'm like you must love the mileage eh? And he laughed. Then I said, "But you should try to aim for what I get, 4 bucks for 100 km!" and he goes HOLY @#@# as he thought I was lying. I told him, "its all technique man, and drive stick ;)"

    Also a student in class today smirked me because I started asking another guy the mileage on his 626 since it was a nice old car using the akinston cycle. He said he could get 13 km for a litre in the city and I thought that was impressive for the average joe whom shares the car with the family espically when its a stick. The guy who smirked me said, "That's hurting man, your talking about fuel economy"

    "So? Maybe if you paid your bills once in awhile you'd know how it feels."

    "That's why I'm in school, so I wouldn't have to worry about such crap."

    **** guy, and he got perfect on his test too. His tone sounds like he treats gas like water ;(

    I'm done my rant! I hope this inspried some to save some fuel and reduce greenhouse gasses by taking it easy on the throttle and conserve! My times to get to school HAS NOT CHANGED ONE BIT and I still feel I arrive at the school 5 mins early with, or without FAS. And let me tell you, that agressive driving and rushing up to red lights and kissing my bumper WILL NOT DO YOU NO GOOD.

    Drop the habit please, get some good music or something man. Why are you all so impatient does your music suck that bad? Does your car smell that bad? Does your seat not making you comfortable? What seems to be the problem here? Why can't you spare me a ****ing second or three?

    Done rant.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2006
  11. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Phil:

    ___Just wait until we get your Civic setup and you into a full blown hypermiling regiment under all driving scenario’s ;) Nice job on the around town FE. There is plenty more where that came from … Wait until this summer when 50 + will be the minimum target, not a maximum one. We will get there soon enough :D

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     

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